6 ms·

Is every attempt to establish communism going to end up like the Soviet Union?

by danharaj 9y ago

systematical 9y ago
No, it could end up like China, Cuba, Vietnam, or Cambodia.
- bryanlarsen 9y ago
  Or it could end up like Sweden or Denmark. (Referring to socialism as the article does, not communism as the comment does. It's Denmark that Bernie & his supporters want to emulate, not communism)
  - systematical 9y ago
    Fair. I still view those countries as capitalist though, its still how most of their markets operate. They are just huge welfare states with a vast social safety net. Not disagreeing with what they do, just my 2 cents on what they actually are.
  - arka2147483647 9y ago
    Well, Nordic countries are usually called Social Democracies, though Americans usually don't make the distinction.
  - danschumann 9y ago
    Those are very homogeneous cultures. America is perhaps one of the least homogeneous cultures. Everyone does not value the same things, so having a state enforce that everyone values the same things would only be the result of too much force.
  - erikj 9y ago
    I'm not sure if a country as large as the US can faithfully emulate Denmark.
  - astine 9y ago
    Sweden and Denmark are often described as socialist countries because they have major political parties with historical ties to classical socialism but the reality is that classical socialism and social democracy (what Sweden and Denmark currently practice) are really different. Socialism involves the state control over the entire economy whereas social democracy is basically a market system with an especially large welfare state. If your goal in the United States is just to increase the size of the welfare state then there is a good change that it won't end up in dictatorship, but if your trying to completely suppress the market system, you'll have a more difficult time of it, I think.
  - ameister14 9y ago
    As a lot of people will point out, neither of those countries are socialist.
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      It doesn't matter what you call it. What matters is the policies of the people who the young people in the article are hoping to elect. That's Bernie, and the Danish welfare state.
  - psyc 9y ago
    Social Democracies are not remotely socialist. They're capitalist, with welfare.
briandear 9y ago
Yes. Or worse. Human nature exists and it doesn’t change. Ignoring the Invisible Hand is to ignore what it means to be human. Read the book Animal Farm if you haven’t already. That captures the psychology of communism perfectly and demonstrates why it never, ever works.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  Animal Farm is not an anti-communist book. The first half captures communism working perfectly well under the rule of the Lenin-Trotsky analogue - the animals work hard, are well-fed, and organise themselves to create new industry - the windmill - with the goal of eventually eliminating the need for labour. Everything goes to pot when the Stalin-analogue takes over, because the book is a reflection of Orwell's opinions of the Soviet Union and his experience fighting with the communes in Spain and the subsequent purges committed Stalinist factions against the Trotskyists. If you read the Ukranian prologue, which is included with most modern published editions, Orwell even outlines that Animal Farm is an attack on Stalinism, and he firmly believes in socialism.
- SauciestGNU 9y ago
  If that's what you took away from the book then I'm afraid you did a shallow reading of it. Animal Farm was specifically a critique of Stalin and the USSR, and how Stalin hijacked the revolutionary vanguard and turned it into a fiefdom for the loyal party members. Orwell himself was a left anarchist and staunch antifascist and anticapitalist. His critique is that of authoritarianism. If you take away from Orwell that he supports capitalism in any form then you may have missed his point.
- yequalsx 9y ago
  The takeaway of Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, etc. is not that communism is bad but rather that concentrating too much power in too few hands is bad. For instance Hitler, Shah of a Iran, etc. Especially when the leaders have simplistic notions. For example, Idi Amin, Maduro, Baby Doc Duvalle, etc.
  - ameister14 9y ago
mattimo 9y ago
There isn't one communist country in our history that I would ever want to live in. Even a modern communist country like China would be a terrible place to live.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Modern China isn't communist.
  - mattimo 9y ago
    Yes, I would say they are a brutal authoritarian socialist country
danschumann 9y ago
There are quite a few attempts at communism that have failed very severely when it comes to human rights. The risk of becoming like the Soviet Union is a great one. To know the extents of how people thought about their government, there is an example from the Gulag Archipelago... A woman was accused of saying things against the state and was sentenced to death. She lied to her daughter and told her daughter of her guilt, so that her daughter would not think bad thoughts against the state, the same state that was going to falsely execute her. They used to bury people in mass graves, alive. Burying them alive was not out of cruelty, but convenience. They found that live bodies were easier to take from the carts into the graves than if they had to lift dead bodies. The worst thing about capitalism is so much better than the worst thing about communism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
- yequalsx 9y ago
  Given the use of slave child labor on cocoa plants, blood diamonds and the chopping off of hands, abuses in the pursuit of rubber in Africa, the willful dumping of toxic chemicals that cause birth defects, etc. that occur in the pursuit of profit by capitalists I’m not sure one can conclude that the worst thing about capitalism is much better than for communism. Perhaps you could say that capitalism does a better job of dispersing the benefits but it’s worst aspects are quite bad. Overall, the thing to fear is concentrated power in too few hands and unregulated markets.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Hm, the starvation of millions during Mao's control were pretty bad. Not sure mistreatment even comes close to 30 millions dead?
    - yequalsx 9y ago
      The worst of capitalism is sort of like death by a thousand cuts. It occurs in pockets and has a much more diverse set of bad actors. But a few slaves here and a few deformed babies there and pretty soon we are talking about misery On a grand scale. It’s just spread out over the planet in pockets and doesn’t have a single person to blame. The worst of Mao and Stalin was more concentrated and was more efficient. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that the worst of capitalism is anything less than evil and abhorrent.

Is every attempt to establish communism going to end up like the Soviet Union?

systematical 9y ago

No, it could end up like China, Cuba, Vietnam, or Cambodia.

bryanlarsen 9y ago
Or it could end up like Sweden or Denmark. (Referring to socialism as the article does, not communism as the comment does. It's Denmark that Bernie & his supporters want to emulate, not communism)
- systematical 9y ago
  Fair. I still view those countries as capitalist though, its still how most of their markets operate. They are just huge welfare states with a vast social safety net. Not disagreeing with what they do, just my 2 cents on what they actually are.
- arka2147483647 9y ago
  Well, Nordic countries are usually called Social Democracies, though Americans usually don't make the distinction.
- danschumann 9y ago
  Those are very homogeneous cultures. America is perhaps one of the least homogeneous cultures. Everyone does not value the same things, so having a state enforce that everyone values the same things would only be the result of too much force.
- erikj 9y ago
  I'm not sure if a country as large as the US can faithfully emulate Denmark.
- astine 9y ago
  Sweden and Denmark are often described as socialist countries because they have major political parties with historical ties to classical socialism but the reality is that classical socialism and social democracy (what Sweden and Denmark currently practice) are really different. Socialism involves the state control over the entire economy whereas social democracy is basically a market system with an especially large welfare state. If your goal in the United States is just to increase the size of the welfare state then there is a good change that it won't end up in dictatorship, but if your trying to completely suppress the market system, you'll have a more difficult time of it, I think.
- ameister14 9y ago
  As a lot of people will point out, neither of those countries are socialist.
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    It doesn't matter what you call it. What matters is the policies of the people who the young people in the article are hoping to elect. That's Bernie, and the Danish welfare state.
- psyc 9y ago
  Social Democracies are not remotely socialist. They're capitalist, with welfare.

briandear 9y ago

Yes. Or worse. Human nature exists and it doesn’t change. Ignoring the Invisible Hand is to ignore what it means to be human. Read the book Animal Farm if you haven’t already. That captures the psychology of communism perfectly and demonstrates why it never, ever works.

ivanbakel 9y ago
Animal Farm is not an anti-communist book. The first half captures communism working perfectly well under the rule of the Lenin-Trotsky analogue - the animals work hard, are well-fed, and organise themselves to create new industry - the windmill - with the goal of eventually eliminating the need for labour. Everything goes to pot when the Stalin-analogue takes over, because the book is a reflection of Orwell's opinions of the Soviet Union and his experience fighting with the communes in Spain and the subsequent purges committed Stalinist factions against the Trotskyists. If you read the Ukranian prologue, which is included with most modern published editions, Orwell even outlines that Animal Farm is an attack on Stalinism, and he firmly believes in socialism.
SauciestGNU 9y ago
If that's what you took away from the book then I'm afraid you did a shallow reading of it. Animal Farm was specifically a critique of Stalin and the USSR, and how Stalin hijacked the revolutionary vanguard and turned it into a fiefdom for the loyal party members. Orwell himself was a left anarchist and staunch antifascist and anticapitalist. His critique is that of authoritarianism. If you take away from Orwell that he supports capitalism in any form then you may have missed his point.
yequalsx 9y ago
The takeaway of Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, etc. is not that communism is bad but rather that concentrating too much power in too few hands is bad. For instance Hitler, Shah of a Iran, etc. Especially when the leaders have simplistic notions. For example, Idi Amin, Maduro, Baby Doc Duvalle, etc.
- ameister14 9y ago

mattimo 9y ago

There isn't one communist country in our history that I would ever want to live in. Even a modern communist country like China would be a terrible place to live.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Modern China isn't communist.
- mattimo 9y ago
  Yes, I would say they are a brutal authoritarian socialist country

danschumann 9y ago

There are quite a few attempts at communism that have failed very severely when it comes to human rights. The risk of becoming like the Soviet Union is a great one. To know the extents of how people thought about their government, there is an example from the Gulag Archipelago... A woman was accused of saying things against the state and was sentenced to death. She lied to her daughter and told her daughter of her guilt, so that her daughter would not think bad thoughts against the state, the same state that was going to falsely execute her. They used to bury people in mass graves, alive. Burying them alive was not out of cruelty, but convenience. They found that live bodies were easier to take from the carts into the graves than if they had to lift dead bodies. The worst thing about capitalism is so much better than the worst thing about communism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

yequalsx 9y ago
Given the use of slave child labor on cocoa plants, blood diamonds and the chopping off of hands, abuses in the pursuit of rubber in Africa, the willful dumping of toxic chemicals that cause birth defects, etc. that occur in the pursuit of profit by capitalists I’m not sure one can conclude that the worst thing about capitalism is much better than for communism. Perhaps you could say that capitalism does a better job of dispersing the benefits but it’s worst aspects are quite bad. Overall, the thing to fear is concentrated power in too few hands and unregulated markets.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Hm, the starvation of millions during Mao's control were pretty bad. Not sure mistreatment even comes close to 30 millions dead?
  - yequalsx 9y ago
    The worst of capitalism is sort of like death by a thousand cuts. It occurs in pockets and has a much more diverse set of bad actors. But a few slaves here and a few deformed babies there and pretty soon we are talking about misery On a grand scale. It’s just spread out over the planet in pockets and doesn’t have a single person to blame. The worst of Mao and Stalin was more concentrated and was more efficient. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that the worst of capitalism is anything less than evil and abhorrent.