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If you're handling millions of bitcoins, belonging to other people, I would go with something more hardened than a Trezor. Hardware Security Module with M of N

If you're handling millions of bitcoins, belonging to other people, I would go with something more hardened than a Trezor. Hardware Security Module with M of N authentication... Use that as a main vault. Keep a smaler number available as liquid. I don't understand why this isn't common sense among these people.

j_s 9y ago
Can you link to a product available for purchase that implements your recommendation so that I can compare pricing vs. the Trezor?
- aspenmayer 9y ago
  YubiHSM 2 is $650 or less in volume https://www.yubico.com/products/yubihsm/ https://www.yubico.com/products/yubihsm/
  - packetized 9y ago
    YubiHSM2 doesn’t do m-of-n in hardware.
- Nuzzerino 9y ago
  The products I'm talking about are tens of thousands of dollars, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the security architect that will set that up. This is not a solution for personal use. If you are in this kind of business, and are honestly clueless, then you probably need to be looking to hire a security director who is qualified to handle this. I'll probably venture to say that only the founder/owner or CFO/controller of the company should ever, EVER have unrestricted access to the vault wallet, and depending on the size of the company then even that will need to be addressed somehow (of which I have no idea the best practice on). The security chief does not need to have unlimited access to this in order to do his job. I'd not trust one who asked for such access.
  - consp 9y ago
    "Simple" ones start at about 5k but require a proper business to buy and can usually do m of n. If you want to go all out you should write your own firmware module and use that. Those engineers are even more expensive than the security architect.
kbody 9y ago
Indeed, my suggestion was merely about an approachable secure way for everyday people. Business etc. have do as you say and have more sophisticated setups.
_nalply 9y ago
And how would that help Nicehash? They have automated processes paying out amounts. An inside job is enough. Some disgruntled employee having access to scripts and giving someone the private keys the script accesses and KABLOOM!
- Nuzzerino 9y ago
  M of N requires multiple private keys in order to withdraw. The script that handles the automated payouts would have access to a wallet that has a relatively small amount of money. When that wallet gets too low or too high, the security and finance team can go to the HSM with their keys, and perform an agreed upon transfer of funds from the vault wallet to the online wallet, or vice versa. I won't say it's impossible for the vault to get robbed, but with a proper security setup, such a heist would be unprecedented. It could even garner some respect on this forum (toward both the attacker and the victim), rather than shame. The online wallet could get hacked, but it would be a smaller fraction of the funds lost, rather than the entire farm. Of course, if you have a decent security team, they'll also be taking other measures to lower the likelihood of that happening. And unless you pissed the wrong people off, you'd be very unlikely to be sunk due to a random hacking. You would be too difficult of a target for it to be worth even trying. Disclaimer: I'm not a security specialist, so don't take this as real security advice. However, was technical lead for payments system of a non-crypto fintech company (this doesn't imply that that company's security is or isn't set up in this way).

j_s 9y ago

Can you link to a product available for purchase that implements your recommendation so that I can compare pricing vs. the Trezor?

aspenmayer 9y ago
YubiHSM 2 is $650 or less in volume https://www.yubico.com/products/yubihsm/ https://www.yubico.com/products/yubihsm/
- packetized 9y ago
  YubiHSM2 doesn’t do m-of-n in hardware.
Nuzzerino 9y ago
The products I'm talking about are tens of thousands of dollars, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the security architect that will set that up. This is not a solution for personal use. If you are in this kind of business, and are honestly clueless, then you probably need to be looking to hire a security director who is qualified to handle this. I'll probably venture to say that only the founder/owner or CFO/controller of the company should ever, EVER have unrestricted access to the vault wallet, and depending on the size of the company then even that will need to be addressed somehow (of which I have no idea the best practice on). The security chief does not need to have unlimited access to this in order to do his job. I'd not trust one who asked for such access.
- consp 9y ago
  "Simple" ones start at about 5k but require a proper business to buy and can usually do m of n. If you want to go all out you should write your own firmware module and use that. Those engineers are even more expensive than the security architect.

kbody 9y ago

Indeed, my suggestion was merely about an approachable secure way for everyday people. Business etc. have do as you say and have more sophisticated setups.

_nalply 9y ago

And how would that help Nicehash? They have automated processes paying out amounts. An inside job is enough. Some disgruntled employee having access to scripts and giving someone the private keys the script accesses and KABLOOM!

Nuzzerino 9y ago
M of N requires multiple private keys in order to withdraw. The script that handles the automated payouts would have access to a wallet that has a relatively small amount of money. When that wallet gets too low or too high, the security and finance team can go to the HSM with their keys, and perform an agreed upon transfer of funds from the vault wallet to the online wallet, or vice versa. I won't say it's impossible for the vault to get robbed, but with a proper security setup, such a heist would be unprecedented. It could even garner some respect on this forum (toward both the attacker and the victim), rather than shame. The online wallet could get hacked, but it would be a smaller fraction of the funds lost, rather than the entire farm. Of course, if you have a decent security team, they'll also be taking other measures to lower the likelihood of that happening. And unless you pissed the wrong people off, you'd be very unlikely to be sunk due to a random hacking. You would be too difficult of a target for it to be worth even trying. Disclaimer: I'm not a security specialist, so don't take this as real security advice. However, was technical lead for payments system of a non-crypto fintech company (this doesn't imply that that company's security is or isn't set up in this way).