6 ms·

Seems excessive to me. 7 years is more than many violent offenders get. Way more than necessary to make the point.

by ams6110 9y ago

rectang 9y ago
White collar crime scales better than violent crime.
- paulpauper 9y ago
  mail fraud and wire fraud penalties are harsh though exec fraud, such as insider trading, is much harder to punish and the sentences more lenient relative to the $ taken
Avshalom 9y ago
How many lives did this statistically end vs the average violent criminal, and over how many years did this have to be a conscious choice.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Impossible to say. But we all statistically end lives by doing many ordinary things, such as driving to work. It satisfies the need revenge I guess.
  - paulpauper 9y ago
    Far more people die in accidents than from emissions, but if people stopped driving it would indirectly cost lives in terms of econ stagnation, I suppose
  - mikeash 9y ago
    That’s not comparable. A commute kills perhaps a millionth or a billionth of a person. It’s sensible to focus much more attention on individual decisions that kill hundreds or thousands.
  - geofft 9y ago
    That seems like an argument to introduce incentive systems against driving to work, not an argument to remove incentive systems against other things that kill. (It doesn't have to be jail time: it could involve expanding public transit, or promoting urbanism over suburbanism, or introducing congestion charges, or regulating car ownership heavily, or lowering speed limits, or lots of other things.)
  - Avshalom 9y ago
    I'd bet he also drove to work.
  - wfo 9y ago
    Sure that makes sense if when I drive to work I say to myself "I know it's illegal to drive a car because it kills people, but I don't really care who I kill because I want to save a couple of bucks". And then following that I say "also I'll sell my driving services to hundreds of thousands but lie to them about how I get them to work, because if they knew I was driving they'd balk because they don't want blood on their hands" And then following that I say "also I'll invest in complex technology to hide my car from the police so that I will never be caught" With those minor modifications your scenario is a totally reasonable analogy.
- fleitz 9y ago
  It probably net extended lives by allowing those benefitting from the better gas milage to enjoy a higher standard of living.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    Life is a zero sum game?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- randyrand 9y ago
  How many lives and future lives are you killing by driving a gasoline vehicle? Probably quite a few when you consider your actions will have an impact for thousands of years. Perhaps this is a silly way to look at things.
  - vinc 9y ago
    Or perhaps this is a very valid way to look at things and it will make you reconsider driving a gasoline vehicle if you can. Personally I have the option to ride a bike and electric (nuclear+hydro) trains instead of driving a car, so that's what I do.
kharms 9y ago
According to this[0] MIT study, the excess emissions will cause 60 premature deaths. If you commit 60 violent offenses you can expect well over 7 years in jail. Edit: 60 in the US, many more globally. [0] http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029 http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60...
- gscott 9y ago
  American car companies cover up deaths all the time. I assume he has jail time because he is from Germany and doesn't have US politicians to protect him. This will lead to foreign car companies making donations to us politicians pet causes in exchange for protection.
- mistermann 9y ago
  It would be a far better deterrent to spread this 7 years over a few more people. Imagine what humanity could be capable of achieving with just a small increase in morality in the executive class. The problem in the world is not capitalism, as so many think, but corruption. Saying you are doing one thing, but actually doing something else.
- dghughes 9y ago
  >the excess emissions will cause 60 premature deaths. That's probably true but that point seems to be used as a jab to sell newspapers, at the very least it's inflammatory. Meanwhile, two-stroke engines, older diesel engines, airplanes using leaded avgas may be as bad as the ten million slightly off tune VWs. And I say this as a person with a parent very ill with lung disease COPD and IPF. I'm not saying the exec deserves to go free but seven years is excessive. Even manslaughter (in my country) gets you two years which means you go to prison, in the US I think that's called a felony.
  - jackvalentine 9y ago
    > Meanwhile, two-stroke engines, older diesel engines, airplanes using leaded avgas may be as bad as the ten million slightly off tune VWs. But these aren't illegal. The point about the deaths is "it was specifically illegal and they did it anyway, with these quantifiable consequences".
stanmancan 9y ago
[...] plead guilty to felony charges of illegally importing nearly 600,000 vehicles equipped with devices to circumvent emissions standards [...] I think 7 years sounds fair given the scale of the charges.
huuvjhyy 9y ago
From a statistical pov increased emissions translate directly to an increase in preventable deaths from outdoor pollution. How much liability should companies and their executives shoulder when their decisions lead to the statistical increase of hundreds or thousands of premature deaths? My comment likely will be auto shadow banned or never seen because of automated HN censorship.
akoncius 9y ago
google “dieselgate deaths” you will find some statistics about premature deaths caused by diesel. and number is in thousands. given the impact of his decision, I would say punishment is too little.
tptacek 9y ago
I agree, in the sense that virtually all sentences are inflated, and violent offenders should also be serving far less time.
wfo 9y ago
This is at least as bad as any violent crime. Almost certainly far, far worse by any ethical metric. The only difference between this and normal violent crime is that this is the kind of horrifying malicious crime rich, powerful people commit while assault or mugging is the crime of choice for the poor and powerless. Compare this vs. a mugging. Intent was worse -- he intended to assault millions instead of just one and also profited off thousands of frauds as well as obstruction of justice (code to hide it from regulators). Consequences and damages were far worse than any violent crime, obviously. But yes, sentences should be far shorter across the board.
- refurb 9y ago
  This is at least as bad as any violent crime. Almost certainly far, far worse by any ethical metric. Really? You'd say that cheating on emissions standards is worse than say beating someone over the head with a bat and robbing them?
  - u02sgb 9y ago
    Bat and robbing - impact one person. Cheating on emissions [1] - impact 1200 people? Not to mention willfully flouting the law. They need to set a precedent. [1]http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...
  - wfo 9y ago
    Yes, obviously. Far worse. Are you seriously suggesting that intentionally poisoning thousands or millions is less bad than assaulting one? One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic, right? That's literally Stalin discussing mass murder. If someone has the power to poison a whole nation, with that power comes equal responsibility for their actions. If they act in good faith, we tend to forgive their mistakes, even if they have disastrous consequences. But there's no good faith here. We know he intended to poison them. There is no serious ethical justification for considering a mugging to be worse. None has been presented here. We just naturally 'feel' that when the powerful commit crimes, these are mistakes (they are not). When the weak commit crimes, they need to be put in their place, because the weak and poor breaking the law is abhorrent to our neoliberal ideology -- the rich are supposed to assault the poor, this is just how things are. The opposite is unthinkable.
InclinedPlane 9y ago
Why? Do you not understand that diesel emissions kill people? The governments of the world have been working diligently to try to balance the demands of continuing to use diesel engines with the costs of them killing people. Subverting those regulations is little different from poisoning the water supply or releasing malaria infected mosquitos into a city. By some studies the VW emissions cheating alone will result in thousands of premature deaths just within Europe, let alone globally. These are very serious crimes, and it is right and proper that they receive punishments sufficient to discourage any other automakers from considering the same type of scam.
inetknght 9y ago
Rather than pushing this guy less, I think violent offenders should be punished more. But that's just my opinion

Seems excessive to me. 7 years is more than many violent offenders get. Way more than necessary to make the point.

rectang 9y ago

White collar crime scales better than violent crime.

paulpauper 9y ago
mail fraud and wire fraud penalties are harsh though exec fraud, such as insider trading, is much harder to punish and the sentences more lenient relative to the $ taken

Avshalom 9y ago

How many lives did this statistically end vs the average violent criminal, and over how many years did this have to be a conscious choice.

ams6110 9y ago
Impossible to say. But we all statistically end lives by doing many ordinary things, such as driving to work. It satisfies the need revenge I guess.
- paulpauper 9y ago
  Far more people die in accidents than from emissions, but if people stopped driving it would indirectly cost lives in terms of econ stagnation, I suppose
- mikeash 9y ago
  That’s not comparable. A commute kills perhaps a millionth or a billionth of a person. It’s sensible to focus much more attention on individual decisions that kill hundreds or thousands.
- geofft 9y ago
  That seems like an argument to introduce incentive systems against driving to work, not an argument to remove incentive systems against other things that kill. (It doesn't have to be jail time: it could involve expanding public transit, or promoting urbanism over suburbanism, or introducing congestion charges, or regulating car ownership heavily, or lowering speed limits, or lots of other things.)
- Avshalom 9y ago
  I'd bet he also drove to work.
- wfo 9y ago
  Sure that makes sense if when I drive to work I say to myself "I know it's illegal to drive a car because it kills people, but I don't really care who I kill because I want to save a couple of bucks". And then following that I say "also I'll sell my driving services to hundreds of thousands but lie to them about how I get them to work, because if they knew I was driving they'd balk because they don't want blood on their hands" And then following that I say "also I'll invest in complex technology to hide my car from the police so that I will never be caught" With those minor modifications your scenario is a totally reasonable analogy.
fleitz 9y ago
It probably net extended lives by allowing those benefitting from the better gas milage to enjoy a higher standard of living.
- mulmen 9y ago
  Life is a zero sum game?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
randyrand 9y ago
How many lives and future lives are you killing by driving a gasoline vehicle? Probably quite a few when you consider your actions will have an impact for thousands of years. Perhaps this is a silly way to look at things.
- vinc 9y ago
  Or perhaps this is a very valid way to look at things and it will make you reconsider driving a gasoline vehicle if you can. Personally I have the option to ride a bike and electric (nuclear+hydro) trains instead of driving a car, so that's what I do.

kharms 9y ago

According to this[0] MIT study, the excess emissions will cause 60 premature deaths. If you commit 60 violent offenses you can expect well over 7 years in jail. Edit: 60 in the US, many more globally. [0] http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029 http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60...

gscott 9y ago
American car companies cover up deaths all the time. I assume he has jail time because he is from Germany and doesn't have US politicians to protect him. This will lead to foreign car companies making donations to us politicians pet causes in exchange for protection.
mistermann 9y ago
It would be a far better deterrent to spread this 7 years over a few more people. Imagine what humanity could be capable of achieving with just a small increase in morality in the executive class. The problem in the world is not capitalism, as so many think, but corruption. Saying you are doing one thing, but actually doing something else.
dghughes 9y ago
>the excess emissions will cause 60 premature deaths. That's probably true but that point seems to be used as a jab to sell newspapers, at the very least it's inflammatory. Meanwhile, two-stroke engines, older diesel engines, airplanes using leaded avgas may be as bad as the ten million slightly off tune VWs. And I say this as a person with a parent very ill with lung disease COPD and IPF. I'm not saying the exec deserves to go free but seven years is excessive. Even manslaughter (in my country) gets you two years which means you go to prison, in the US I think that's called a felony.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  > Meanwhile, two-stroke engines, older diesel engines, airplanes using leaded avgas may be as bad as the ten million slightly off tune VWs. But these aren't illegal. The point about the deaths is "it was specifically illegal and they did it anyway, with these quantifiable consequences".

stanmancan 9y ago

[...] plead guilty to felony charges of illegally importing nearly 600,000 vehicles equipped with devices to circumvent emissions standards [...] I think 7 years sounds fair given the scale of the charges.

huuvjhyy 9y ago

From a statistical pov increased emissions translate directly to an increase in preventable deaths from outdoor pollution. How much liability should companies and their executives shoulder when their decisions lead to the statistical increase of hundreds or thousands of premature deaths? My comment likely will be auto shadow banned or never seen because of automated HN censorship.

akoncius 9y ago

google “dieselgate deaths” you will find some statistics about premature deaths caused by diesel. and number is in thousands. given the impact of his decision, I would say punishment is too little.

tptacek 9y ago

I agree, in the sense that virtually all sentences are inflated, and violent offenders should also be serving far less time.

wfo 9y ago

This is at least as bad as any violent crime. Almost certainly far, far worse by any ethical metric. The only difference between this and normal violent crime is that this is the kind of horrifying malicious crime rich, powerful people commit while assault or mugging is the crime of choice for the poor and powerless. Compare this vs. a mugging. Intent was worse -- he intended to assault millions instead of just one and also profited off thousands of frauds as well as obstruction of justice (code to hide it from regulators). Consequences and damages were far worse than any violent crime, obviously. But yes, sentences should be far shorter across the board.

refurb 9y ago
This is at least as bad as any violent crime. Almost certainly far, far worse by any ethical metric. Really? You'd say that cheating on emissions standards is worse than say beating someone over the head with a bat and robbing them?
- u02sgb 9y ago
  Bat and robbing - impact one person. Cheating on emissions [1] - impact 1200 people? Not to mention willfully flouting the law. They need to set a precedent. [1]http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303 http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...
- wfo 9y ago
  Yes, obviously. Far worse. Are you seriously suggesting that intentionally poisoning thousands or millions is less bad than assaulting one? One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic, right? That's literally Stalin discussing mass murder. If someone has the power to poison a whole nation, with that power comes equal responsibility for their actions. If they act in good faith, we tend to forgive their mistakes, even if they have disastrous consequences. But there's no good faith here. We know he intended to poison them. There is no serious ethical justification for considering a mugging to be worse. None has been presented here. We just naturally 'feel' that when the powerful commit crimes, these are mistakes (they are not). When the weak commit crimes, they need to be put in their place, because the weak and poor breaking the law is abhorrent to our neoliberal ideology -- the rich are supposed to assault the poor, this is just how things are. The opposite is unthinkable.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

Why? Do you not understand that diesel emissions kill people? The governments of the world have been working diligently to try to balance the demands of continuing to use diesel engines with the costs of them killing people. Subverting those regulations is little different from poisoning the water supply or releasing malaria infected mosquitos into a city. By some studies the VW emissions cheating alone will result in thousands of premature deaths just within Europe, let alone globally. These are very serious crimes, and it is right and proper that they receive punishments sufficient to discourage any other automakers from considering the same type of scam.

inetknght 9y ago

Rather than pushing this guy less, I think violent offenders should be punished more. But that's just my opinion