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I've read about it and I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that his denials about sexual misconduct are false. Although, I understand the standard of pro

I've read about it and I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that his denials about sexual misconduct are false. Although, I understand the standard of proof required for the court of popular opinion is much lower than an actual legal court.

heartbreak 9y ago
Innocent until proven guilty is a fine principal for a court of law, but I feel no obligation to apply it to my own decisions. I see enough evidence (not proof, evidence) to make my own decision that Moore’s accusers are telling the truth. To each his own.
minimaxir 9y ago
This is an ironic comment for this particular HN submission, as it’s a story about women whose single testimony brought down industry leaders. And Roy Moore has eight independent accusers to date.
- insickness 9y ago
  While eight may seem like a lot, it's not that hard to find people willing to lie. If eight women came forward and said that a guy in the shipping department had harassed them, I may question it less because there is less motivation for eight women to say that. With a senate seat at stake there is a lot more reason to question it without any accompanying evidence.
  - aplummer 9y ago
    It’s pretty had to get 8 people to get interviewed by the cops on something this serious without screwing it up badly. Look at the fake accuser plant and the WP, they sussed it out very quickly.
    - talmand 9y ago
      What police interviews are you speaking of? As far as I know the Moore accusations have only been made to the press with no legal aspect to it at this time.
      - aplummer 9y ago
        You’re right my bad I was thinking about the Washington Post but I said cops.
- aplummer 9y ago
  It’s actually 9 now.
maxerickson 9y ago
What sort of evidence would you consider dispositive?
- talmand 9y ago
  I think a clear photograph of the person committing the misdeeds would be useful, but not for everybody it seems.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Well yes of course that would be useful. But let's try again. What's the least amount of evidence that you would find dispositive?
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      If the accused accuses back, the lack of proofs (despite evidences) would be an evidence of the plot.
      - minimaxir 9y ago
        The absense of evidence is not evidence.
        owebmaster 9y ago
        Unless you have tens of accusers and no proof. Not talking about the case, but sure a lot of accusations without proof could be a plot.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> I've read about it and I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that his denials about sexual misconduct are false. Although, I understand the standard of proof required for the court of popular opinion is much lower than an actual legal court. The standard required in an actual legal court for anything other than a criminal conviction is much lower than what you demand, and even the criminal burden of proof is singificanrtly lower, as “beyond a reasonable doubt” is a far cry from “definitive proof that denials are wrong”. Ironically, the standard you demand is exactly the standard many people apply in the court of public opinion for rejecting their priors, especially when those priors are tribal (e.g., political partisan) identity markers, like “the guy on my team is virtuous”.
- pnutjam 9y ago
  Yes, there is definitely enough evidence to conclude Ray Moore's accusers are telling the truth, if you use "beyond a reasonable doubt". Too bad so many people politicize this and take it way beyond reasonable.
supercanuck 9y ago
Roy Moore is saying he doesn't even know the women. There is documented evidence that he does (Year books and the like). As it stands now, there is evidence that Roy Moore is a liar.
- koolba 9y ago
  That yearbook is the only physical evidence presented yet it seems to be forgery. That doesn't bode well for the veracity of the allegations from that accuser or the level of due diligence offered by Gloria Allred.
  - supercanuck 9y ago
    There are two pieces and the only one claiming forgery, is Roy Moore's camp (Shocking, i know)
    - talmand 9y ago
      Roy Moore's camp is also asking the yearbook be handed over to a third-party for analysis but so far the request has been ignored.
      - supercanuck 9y ago
        it was examined by Mark Songer an ex-FBI Forensic Examiner. And now there is a second piece of evidence. On a side note, Man, you guys will go to some great lengths in your misinformation. I can understand some critical thought, but its like talking to defense attorneys.
        talmand 9y ago
        Just a note: since this discussion was had the lady in question has admitted that a portion of the yearbook entry was indeed forged by her. The portion that a great number of people online claimed looked suspicious that was also looked at by the WAPO's expert.
logfromblammo 9y ago
The civil standard is preponderance of evidence. The criminal standard is beyond reasonable doubt. I believe that the civil standard is appropriate for public elections. And for this type of proceeding, hearsay is admissible as evidence. At this time, the prosecution in the court of public opinion has offered reams of eyewitness testimony (even as unreliable as that category of evidence may be), and the defense has offered "nuh-uh, wazzenme" and a parade of character witnesses--that are strangely reticent to back up their assertions with their specific reasons for believing that it would be out of character for Roy Moore to have pursued and sexually molested children when he was younger. As I am a cynical anarchist atheist, "he votes Republican and regularly attends Christian churches" actually holds negative weight for me. There is also the other thing, the thing that is undeniable fact, and a matter of public record. He has twice been evicted--dragged kicking and screaming--from public office, for flouting the law. He has twice proven himself to be incapable of upholding the parts of the U.S. constitution that he doesn't like, and it would have only taken once for me to consider him unfit to be a U.S. senator. And besides all that, he gives me the same vibe as an Alabama politician that I got from Rod Blagojevich as a Chicago politician. It's as though all the bacteria in my intestines are screaming in unison: "That guy is a colossal piece of isht, and we know isht better than anyone! Do not allow him within 100m of your government, your bank accounts, or your children!"

heartbreak 9y ago

Innocent until proven guilty is a fine principal for a court of law, but I feel no obligation to apply it to my own decisions. I see enough evidence (not proof, evidence) to make my own decision that Moore’s accusers are telling the truth. To each his own.

minimaxir 9y ago

This is an ironic comment for this particular HN submission, as it’s a story about women whose single testimony brought down industry leaders. And Roy Moore has eight independent accusers to date.

insickness 9y ago
While eight may seem like a lot, it's not that hard to find people willing to lie. If eight women came forward and said that a guy in the shipping department had harassed them, I may question it less because there is less motivation for eight women to say that. With a senate seat at stake there is a lot more reason to question it without any accompanying evidence.
- aplummer 9y ago
  It’s pretty had to get 8 people to get interviewed by the cops on something this serious without screwing it up badly. Look at the fake accuser plant and the WP, they sussed it out very quickly.
  - talmand 9y ago
    What police interviews are you speaking of? As far as I know the Moore accusations have only been made to the press with no legal aspect to it at this time.
    - aplummer 9y ago
      You’re right my bad I was thinking about the Washington Post but I said cops.
aplummer 9y ago
It’s actually 9 now.

maxerickson 9y ago

What sort of evidence would you consider dispositive?

talmand 9y ago
I think a clear photograph of the person committing the misdeeds would be useful, but not for everybody it seems.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Well yes of course that would be useful. But let's try again. What's the least amount of evidence that you would find dispositive?
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    If the accused accuses back, the lack of proofs (despite evidences) would be an evidence of the plot.
    - minimaxir 9y ago
      The absense of evidence is not evidence.
      - owebmaster 9y ago
        Unless you have tens of accusers and no proof. Not talking about the case, but sure a lot of accusations without proof could be a plot.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> I've read about it and I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that his denials about sexual misconduct are false. Although, I understand the standard of proof required for the court of popular opinion is much lower than an actual legal court. The standard required in an actual legal court for anything other than a criminal conviction is much lower than what you demand, and even the criminal burden of proof is singificanrtly lower, as “beyond a reasonable doubt” is a far cry from “definitive proof that denials are wrong”. Ironically, the standard you demand is exactly the standard many people apply in the court of public opinion for rejecting their priors, especially when those priors are tribal (e.g., political partisan) identity markers, like “the guy on my team is virtuous”.

pnutjam 9y ago
Yes, there is definitely enough evidence to conclude Ray Moore's accusers are telling the truth, if you use "beyond a reasonable doubt". Too bad so many people politicize this and take it way beyond reasonable.

supercanuck 9y ago

Roy Moore is saying he doesn't even know the women. There is documented evidence that he does (Year books and the like). As it stands now, there is evidence that Roy Moore is a liar.

koolba 9y ago
That yearbook is the only physical evidence presented yet it seems to be forgery. That doesn't bode well for the veracity of the allegations from that accuser or the level of due diligence offered by Gloria Allred.
- supercanuck 9y ago
  There are two pieces and the only one claiming forgery, is Roy Moore's camp (Shocking, i know)
  - talmand 9y ago
    Roy Moore's camp is also asking the yearbook be handed over to a third-party for analysis but so far the request has been ignored.
    - supercanuck 9y ago
      it was examined by Mark Songer an ex-FBI Forensic Examiner. And now there is a second piece of evidence. On a side note, Man, you guys will go to some great lengths in your misinformation. I can understand some critical thought, but its like talking to defense attorneys.
      - talmand 9y ago
        Just a note: since this discussion was had the lady in question has admitted that a portion of the yearbook entry was indeed forged by her. The portion that a great number of people online claimed looked suspicious that was also looked at by the WAPO's expert.

logfromblammo 9y ago

The civil standard is preponderance of evidence. The criminal standard is beyond reasonable doubt. I believe that the civil standard is appropriate for public elections. And for this type of proceeding, hearsay is admissible as evidence. At this time, the prosecution in the court of public opinion has offered reams of eyewitness testimony (even as unreliable as that category of evidence may be), and the defense has offered "nuh-uh, wazzenme" and a parade of character witnesses--that are strangely reticent to back up their assertions with their specific reasons for believing that it would be out of character for Roy Moore to have pursued and sexually molested children when he was younger. As I am a cynical anarchist atheist, "he votes Republican and regularly attends Christian churches" actually holds negative weight for me. There is also the other thing, the thing that is undeniable fact, and a matter of public record. He has twice been evicted--dragged kicking and screaming--from public office, for flouting the law. He has twice proven himself to be incapable of upholding the parts of the U.S. constitution that he doesn't like, and it would have only taken once for me to consider him unfit to be a U.S. senator. And besides all that, he gives me the same vibe as an Alabama politician that I got from Rod Blagojevich as a Chicago politician. It's as though all the bacteria in my intestines are screaming in unison: "That guy is a colossal piece of isht, and we know isht better than anyone! Do not allow him within 100m of your government, your bank accounts, or your children!"