4 ms·

Glad no one mentioned Italy, don't even think about it. Just founding a limited liability company costs 6000euros+ (2500 of those are to be put in as starting c

Glad no one mentioned Italy, don't even think about it. Just founding a limited liability company costs 6000euros+ (2500 of those are to be put in as starting capital MANDATORY and the rest is pure cost)

gizmo 16y ago
That's not a lot of money. Neither relatively nor absolutely. For contrast, starting a GmbH in Germany (llc equivalent) requires a 25000 euro investment plus all the fees and legal cost. Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requiresna 18000 euro investment, again not including overhead and registration. The US is the exception, with its liberal LLC and bankrupty laws. In europe there just are a few additional hurdles. I agree that italy should be avoided, but for other reasons (mentality, corruption, etc)
- bnoordhuis 16y ago
  The 18K liquidity requirement for Dutch BVs is about to be dropped, if indeed it hasn't already. It's a trivial obstacle anyway. You only need the money in an account on the day of incorporation.There are a number of companies that will lend it to you - for a fee, of course. :-)
  - davidw 16y ago
    18K is in the range of what YC companies receive. It's not a 'trivial amount' - it's a bunch of extra hassle that one has to think about, especially if we're talking about a couple of kids just out of college with an idea and not a lot of money. And, at least in Italy, the 'social capital' thing means that the money has to go into the company somehow - you can't just borrow it and then give it back to the bank the next day.
    - Be_Silly 16y ago
      I can't comment on a specific other state, but in the UK, the PLC min. capital of GBP£50K can be provided in kind. (PLC is very loosly comparable to AG, A/S, SA, etc. . ) Maybe there are other exceptions like this you can use. Bear in mind, compliance costs of the higher forms of incorporation (which are suited to public or large shareholder bases, and come with rules to suit those needs) will always exceed up front instantiation expenses.
- shezi 16y ago
  For this reason the german UG (Unternehmergesellschaft - Society of Entrepreneurs) was created. The investment can be chosen freely by the founders, the fees are very low (about 300 Euros) and the only drawback is that you have to put one quarter of the profits back into the capitalization.
- riffraff 16y ago
  in what way does corruption obstructs a startup working on the internet to the world? It is an issue if, say, you try to market you new cool X thing to local administrators and state owned companies, but that does not seem the case for the OP.
- fun2have 16y ago
  Separate corporate structure from where you base yourself. For example to start a limited company in Ireland with accountant fee's etc is about €300. Capital Requirement is €1. And that company can base itself anywhere in Europe. One of the advantages of the Single Market.
  - davidw 16y ago
    I've heard varying things about this from people in Italy. I'm not sure it's entirely ok to live and work in country A for a company that is located elsewhere, but I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant.
    - fun2have 16y ago
      It very much ok to have a company registered in one country and work for it in another . This is the whole idea of the Treaty of Rome, which is the treaty that forms the EU. Some famous examples are like Air Berlin which is a UK PLC. Where things can get a bit complex is the tax situation. You need to pay tax where the business is, which can be different from where it is registered.
- davidw 16y ago
  As riffraff says, corruption isn't a problem for internet companies, really. Especially seeing as how most of them are in the north, which, while still not being a model of squeaky clean, is much better than the south. The problems in Italy for an internet company are 1) bureaucracy 2) the fact that many potential employees are going to value stability over the good things about startups 3) fairly high cost of living in many places (Milan is expensive and an armpit - hot and humid and smoggy in the summer, cold and clammy in the winter). That said, there are an awful lot of bright and creative people here. I hope that we'll see that potential unlocked sooner, rather than later. BTW, here's a more in-depth article about Italy's problems, although some of them are not so applicable to internet startups: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...
- speleding 16y ago
  Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requires you to have 18000 euro in your bank account at the moment of inception for a few days, but the actual cost are much lower. I managed to do it for less than 1000 euros and within a week (although usually it takes about a month).
  - a00021 16y ago
    Could you elaborate on the procedure? This would make an excellent future reference.
- paolomaffei 16y ago
  What about ireland and england LTDs? They're pretty cheap. And 6k euros for "2 guys and an idea in a garage" can be a lot of money. Agree for mentality, people might want stability. Corruption no, here in the north there's almost none - that I heard of, at least. And if you aren't selling to the government how is that a problem anyway? You only need an internet connection

gizmo 16y ago

That's not a lot of money. Neither relatively nor absolutely. For contrast, starting a GmbH in Germany (llc equivalent) requires a 25000 euro investment plus all the fees and legal cost. Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requiresna 18000 euro investment, again not including overhead and registration. The US is the exception, with its liberal LLC and bankrupty laws. In europe there just are a few additional hurdles. I agree that italy should be avoided, but for other reasons (mentality, corruption, etc)

bnoordhuis 16y ago
The 18K liquidity requirement for Dutch BVs is about to be dropped, if indeed it hasn't already. It's a trivial obstacle anyway. You only need the money in an account on the day of incorporation.There are a number of companies that will lend it to you - for a fee, of course. :-)
- davidw 16y ago
  18K is in the range of what YC companies receive. It's not a 'trivial amount' - it's a bunch of extra hassle that one has to think about, especially if we're talking about a couple of kids just out of college with an idea and not a lot of money. And, at least in Italy, the 'social capital' thing means that the money has to go into the company somehow - you can't just borrow it and then give it back to the bank the next day.
  - Be_Silly 16y ago
    I can't comment on a specific other state, but in the UK, the PLC min. capital of GBP£50K can be provided in kind. (PLC is very loosly comparable to AG, A/S, SA, etc. . ) Maybe there are other exceptions like this you can use. Bear in mind, compliance costs of the higher forms of incorporation (which are suited to public or large shareholder bases, and come with rules to suit those needs) will always exceed up front instantiation expenses.
shezi 16y ago
For this reason the german UG (Unternehmergesellschaft - Society of Entrepreneurs) was created. The investment can be chosen freely by the founders, the fees are very low (about 300 Euros) and the only drawback is that you have to put one quarter of the profits back into the capitalization.
riffraff 16y ago
in what way does corruption obstructs a startup working on the internet to the world? It is an issue if, say, you try to market you new cool X thing to local administrators and state owned companies, but that does not seem the case for the OP.
fun2have 16y ago
Separate corporate structure from where you base yourself. For example to start a limited company in Ireland with accountant fee's etc is about €300. Capital Requirement is €1. And that company can base itself anywhere in Europe. One of the advantages of the Single Market.
- davidw 16y ago
  I've heard varying things about this from people in Italy. I'm not sure it's entirely ok to live and work in country A for a company that is located elsewhere, but I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant.
  - fun2have 16y ago
    It very much ok to have a company registered in one country and work for it in another . This is the whole idea of the Treaty of Rome, which is the treaty that forms the EU. Some famous examples are like Air Berlin which is a UK PLC. Where things can get a bit complex is the tax situation. You need to pay tax where the business is, which can be different from where it is registered.
davidw 16y ago
As riffraff says, corruption isn't a problem for internet companies, really. Especially seeing as how most of them are in the north, which, while still not being a model of squeaky clean, is much better than the south. The problems in Italy for an internet company are 1) bureaucracy 2) the fact that many potential employees are going to value stability over the good things about startups 3) fairly high cost of living in many places (Milan is expensive and an armpit - hot and humid and smoggy in the summer, cold and clammy in the winter). That said, there are an awful lot of bright and creative people here. I hope that we'll see that potential unlocked sooner, rather than later. BTW, here's a more in-depth article about Italy's problems, although some of them are not so applicable to internet startups: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...
speleding 16y ago
Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requires you to have 18000 euro in your bank account at the moment of inception for a few days, but the actual cost are much lower. I managed to do it for less than 1000 euros and within a week (although usually it takes about a month).
- a00021 16y ago
  Could you elaborate on the procedure? This would make an excellent future reference.
paolomaffei 16y ago
What about ireland and england LTDs? They're pretty cheap. And 6k euros for "2 guys and an idea in a garage" can be a lot of money. Agree for mentality, people might want stability. Corruption no, here in the north there's almost none - that I heard of, at least. And if you aren't selling to the government how is that a problem anyway? You only need an internet connection