4 ms·

Nothing like some good old black and white, two sided European nationalism to bring tears to the eyes, is there?

by timthelion 9y ago

edoloughlin 9y ago
Try reading the article. Maybe also research what La Marseillaise stands for.
- timthelion 9y ago
  "La Marseillaise" is the French national anthem. Here are the words in English: "Arise, children of the Fatherland, The day of glory has arrived! Against us tyranny's Bloody banner is raised, (repeat) Do you hear, in the countryside, The roar of those ferocious soldiers? They're coming right into your arms To cut the throats of your sons, your women! To arms, citizens, Form your battalions, Let's march, let's march! Lest an impure blood Soak our fields! What does this horde of slaves, Of traitors and conspiratorial kings want? For whom are these vile chains, These long-prepared irons? (repeat) Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage What fury it must arouse! It is us they dare plan To return to the old slavery! To arms, citizens... What! Foreign cohorts Would make the law in our homes! What! These mercenary phalanxes Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat) Great God! By chained hands Our brows would yield under the yoke Vile despots would have themselves The masters of our destinies! To arms, citizens... Tremble, tyrants and you traitors The shame of all parties, Tremble! Your parricidal schemes Will finally receive their reward! (repeat) Everyone is a soldier to combat you If they fall, our young heroes, The earth will produce new ones, Ready to fight against you! To arms, citizens... Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors, Bear or hold back your blows! Spare those sorry victims, Who arm against us with regret. (repeat) But not these bloodthirsty despots, These accomplices of Bouillé, All these tigers who, mercilessly, Rip their mother's breast! To arms, citizens... Sacred love of the Fatherland, Lead, support our avenging arms Liberty, cherished Liberty, Fight with thy defenders! (repeat) Under our flags, may victory Hurry to thy manly accents, May thy expiring enemies, See thy triumph and our glory! To arms, citizens..." It is a patriotic military song about defending France from attackers. It's not fundamentally different from many other such verses in the anthems and patriotic texts of competing nations. The Quran contains similar wording when describing calls for Jihad to defend the fatherland. While the Nazi's were evil, that does not mean we should be brought to tears by any nation which stood against them. Stalin's propagandists also wrote hymns which brought tears to many a Russian's eyes during and after the war. And France was far from perfect at the time of WWII. Hitler is still admired by a large minority of Arabs because the Nazi's helped "liberate" former French colonies! [1] I'm not picking on the French here though. My point is, that we shouldn't be confused in our passions into worshiping "something anything so long as it's against the Nazis". While it is not true that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend". In a broader sense, it is not true that every ally is your friend. And you should not equate a champion with their cause. Flawed reasoning: "Communism is the main force against capitalism, therefore if I want to fight capitalism I should become a communist." More flawed reasoning: "Russia has the most troops fighting against Hitler. Therefore, if I want to fight Nazism I should become a Russian." More flawed reasoning: "Hitler attacked France, therefore, if I lived in France and feel harmed by Nazism, I should love France." (Remember, France was all for getting rid of the Jews [2]. They just didn't like being invaded... ) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany... [2] "The evacuation of European Jewry to the island of Madagascar was not a new concept. Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, Lord Moyne, German scholar Paul de Lagarde and the British, French, and Polish governments had all contemplated the idea." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state#Madagascar_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state#M...
  - mariodiana 9y ago
    What you express is the kind of cynical misanthropy that leaves men powerless in the face of grave danger perpetrated even by egregious evil. Thankfully, there has existed, even in the 20th century, men and women immune to this kind of mean minded guilt trip. I'm sorry, but the French would have to have force fed human infants to fatten them up and eaten their little livers before any sane person would have to wonder what side to take in a contest between them and the Nazis. But, you enjoy your sophisticated moral calculus, and bon chance!
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - dvt 9y ago
    > It is a patriotic military song about defending France from attackers. It's not fundamentally different from many other such verses in the anthems and patriotic texts of competing nations. The Quran contains similar wording when describing calls for Jihad to defend the fatherland. Some real mental gymnastics going on there. I'm not sure what your point is: that nationalism is bad? That France isn't perfect? That anthems are bad? I don't get it. One thing is clear, however: you fundamentally misunderstand the Casablanca La Marseillaise scene.
    - unmole 9y ago
      > that nationalism is bad? Well, European style nationalism was the single most destructive force of the 20th century. So, bad is putting it mildly. La Marseillaise is an exhortation to form battalions, march on to war and to water the fields with the blood of the impure. It represents exactly the kind of militant nationalism that led to war in the first place. Also, as someone from a country that was colonized and exploited by the British for centuries, I can't but help roll my eyes when the Allies are portrayed as the champions of freedom.
      - jcranmer 9y ago
        La Marseillaise is undeniably martial. It is not particularly nationalistic, however. It does not extol the virtues of France, it does not affirm territorial claims, it does not attack any other country directly or by allusion. All of these are fairly common in national anthems in the era. By contrast, the central theme here is basically "Fight! ... Because we're really screwed if you don't." While I don't deny the issues with nationalism, nor that national anthems were a major tool of fomenting such nationalism, I think it improper to assert that La Marseillaise was a major contributing factor to that end.
dang 9y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. Tossing this sort of flamebait into an HN thread is vandalism, let alone going full Hitler once people take the bait. We're trying for an entirely different kind of site here. I appreciate that you also post the occasional substantive comment, but your balance is negative and it isn't worth it. If you don't want to be banned on HN, though, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com and commit to using the site as intended from now on. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292 and marked it off-topic.
- thomas_howland 9y ago
  Be less sensitive. The role of manichaeism in art is underappreciated.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Hmm, interesting. A shadow ban. I agree that my first comment was too without substance. However, I feel that the entire thread was rather without substance. I don't really see the problem with the second comment though, or how it is going "full Hitler". Godwin's law doesn't apply to discussions that are literally about WWII. Yes, it may be negative, but is negativity wrong in of itself it if my negativity is backed up by rational discussion?
  - dang 9y ago
    It's hardly a "shadow ban" when we explain it to you at length! The issue is that your comment history has frequently violated the site guidelines. That's not just about negativity—it's possible to say critical things in civil, substantive ways. But you've been doing it in a way that damages thoughtful conversation, and that's a net negative here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
    - timthelion 9y ago

Nothing like some good old black and white, two sided European nationalism to bring tears to the eyes, is there?

edoloughlin 9y ago

Try reading the article. Maybe also research what La Marseillaise stands for.

timthelion 9y ago
"La Marseillaise" is the French national anthem. Here are the words in English: "Arise, children of the Fatherland, The day of glory has arrived! Against us tyranny's Bloody banner is raised, (repeat) Do you hear, in the countryside, The roar of those ferocious soldiers? They're coming right into your arms To cut the throats of your sons, your women! To arms, citizens, Form your battalions, Let's march, let's march! Lest an impure blood Soak our fields! What does this horde of slaves, Of traitors and conspiratorial kings want? For whom are these vile chains, These long-prepared irons? (repeat) Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage What fury it must arouse! It is us they dare plan To return to the old slavery! To arms, citizens... What! Foreign cohorts Would make the law in our homes! What! These mercenary phalanxes Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat) Great God! By chained hands Our brows would yield under the yoke Vile despots would have themselves The masters of our destinies! To arms, citizens... Tremble, tyrants and you traitors The shame of all parties, Tremble! Your parricidal schemes Will finally receive their reward! (repeat) Everyone is a soldier to combat you If they fall, our young heroes, The earth will produce new ones, Ready to fight against you! To arms, citizens... Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors, Bear or hold back your blows! Spare those sorry victims, Who arm against us with regret. (repeat) But not these bloodthirsty despots, These accomplices of Bouillé, All these tigers who, mercilessly, Rip their mother's breast! To arms, citizens... Sacred love of the Fatherland, Lead, support our avenging arms Liberty, cherished Liberty, Fight with thy defenders! (repeat) Under our flags, may victory Hurry to thy manly accents, May thy expiring enemies, See thy triumph and our glory! To arms, citizens..." It is a patriotic military song about defending France from attackers. It's not fundamentally different from many other such verses in the anthems and patriotic texts of competing nations. The Quran contains similar wording when describing calls for Jihad to defend the fatherland. While the Nazi's were evil, that does not mean we should be brought to tears by any nation which stood against them. Stalin's propagandists also wrote hymns which brought tears to many a Russian's eyes during and after the war. And France was far from perfect at the time of WWII. Hitler is still admired by a large minority of Arabs because the Nazi's helped "liberate" former French colonies! [1] I'm not picking on the French here though. My point is, that we shouldn't be confused in our passions into worshiping "something anything so long as it's against the Nazis". While it is not true that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend". In a broader sense, it is not true that every ally is your friend. And you should not equate a champion with their cause. Flawed reasoning: "Communism is the main force against capitalism, therefore if I want to fight capitalism I should become a communist." More flawed reasoning: "Russia has the most troops fighting against Hitler. Therefore, if I want to fight Nazism I should become a Russian." More flawed reasoning: "Hitler attacked France, therefore, if I lived in France and feel harmed by Nazism, I should love France." (Remember, France was all for getting rid of the Jews [2]. They just didn't like being invaded... ) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany... [2] "The evacuation of European Jewry to the island of Madagascar was not a new concept. Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, Lord Moyne, German scholar Paul de Lagarde and the British, French, and Polish governments had all contemplated the idea." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state#Madagascar_plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state#M...
- mariodiana 9y ago
  What you express is the kind of cynical misanthropy that leaves men powerless in the face of grave danger perpetrated even by egregious evil. Thankfully, there has existed, even in the 20th century, men and women immune to this kind of mean minded guilt trip. I'm sorry, but the French would have to have force fed human infants to fatten them up and eaten their little livers before any sane person would have to wonder what side to take in a contest between them and the Nazis. But, you enjoy your sophisticated moral calculus, and bon chance!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- dvt 9y ago
  > It is a patriotic military song about defending France from attackers. It's not fundamentally different from many other such verses in the anthems and patriotic texts of competing nations. The Quran contains similar wording when describing calls for Jihad to defend the fatherland. Some real mental gymnastics going on there. I'm not sure what your point is: that nationalism is bad? That France isn't perfect? That anthems are bad? I don't get it. One thing is clear, however: you fundamentally misunderstand the Casablanca La Marseillaise scene.
  - unmole 9y ago
    > that nationalism is bad? Well, European style nationalism was the single most destructive force of the 20th century. So, bad is putting it mildly. La Marseillaise is an exhortation to form battalions, march on to war and to water the fields with the blood of the impure. It represents exactly the kind of militant nationalism that led to war in the first place. Also, as someone from a country that was colonized and exploited by the British for centuries, I can't but help roll my eyes when the Allies are portrayed as the champions of freedom.
    - jcranmer 9y ago
      La Marseillaise is undeniably martial. It is not particularly nationalistic, however. It does not extol the virtues of France, it does not affirm territorial claims, it does not attack any other country directly or by allusion. All of these are fairly common in national anthems in the era. By contrast, the central theme here is basically "Fight! ... Because we're really screwed if you don't." While I don't deny the issues with nationalism, nor that national anthems were a major tool of fomenting such nationalism, I think it improper to assert that La Marseillaise was a major contributing factor to that end.

dang 9y ago

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. Tossing this sort of flamebait into an HN thread is vandalism, let alone going full Hitler once people take the bait. We're trying for an entirely different kind of site here. I appreciate that you also post the occasional substantive comment, but your balance is negative and it isn't worth it. If you don't want to be banned on HN, though, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com and commit to using the site as intended from now on. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15857292 and marked it off-topic.

thomas_howland 9y ago
Be less sensitive. The role of manichaeism in art is underappreciated.
timthelion 9y ago
Hmm, interesting. A shadow ban. I agree that my first comment was too without substance. However, I feel that the entire thread was rather without substance. I don't really see the problem with the second comment though, or how it is going "full Hitler". Godwin's law doesn't apply to discussions that are literally about WWII. Yes, it may be negative, but is negativity wrong in of itself it if my negativity is backed up by rational discussion?
- dang 9y ago
  It's hardly a "shadow ban" when we explain it to you at length! The issue is that your comment history has frequently violated the site guidelines. That's not just about negativity—it's possible to say critical things in civil, substantive ways. But you've been doing it in a way that damages thoughtful conversation, and that's a net negative here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
  - timthelion 9y ago