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your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness This 'flippant' comment was made by someone with enough exper

your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness This 'flippant' comment was made by someone with enough experience with mental illness to not warrant downvoting based on their own projection of me not having enough respect for the seriousness of mental illness. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? Yes, I really need an explanation of why mental health problems would be especially common among programmers and why Zed would need to include it in a book aimed at aspiring programmers. I don't think the risk of mental problems is even remotely close to the the risk of some of the physical problems mentioned, because contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive. You're making the same dubious generalization as Zed: turning your own experience into something that you suppose to be 'common'. I'm asking for evidence of that. Your personal experience with loneliness does not provide that. The question is what additional risks to your mental health becoming a programmer introduces, beyond the fact that mental health problems are already reason number one for disfunctioning, unhappiness, and even death in certain age categories. Should every writer of every introduction on any professional subject include a section on mental health problems, because everyone is at risk of them? I'd rather advocate people being taught the risks of certain working conditions in highschool.

jacquesm 16y ago
> contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive > I'm asking for evidence of that I can't speak for 'mechanical_fish' but I've seen plenty of evidence of that, including two very sad cases (very smart but socially mal-adapted people that ended up living more or less like hermits).
- Confusion 16y ago
  But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? The problem may be the other way around: programming attracts people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Only someone physically near that cares can help and then we are still supposing that these people are unhappy. Mechanical_fish needs company and social interactions, which is pretty normal. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs it. You run the risk of imposing your moral standard about 'socializing' on others, that can, and want to, get by with little social interaction.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    > But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? I think the dialogue with the computer gave them what they never could get from having a dialogue with people, someone that could keep up with them and that understood them in a way that few people ever would be able to. > If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Physicists don't as a rule work from their houses with curtains in front of the window to block out the daylight and nothing but food ordered by phone. As a software guy you can easily get away with that, and with the virtual office trend we're even formalizing that whole concept. > Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? That's a really good question, and I haven't a clue about an answer for you. Would it have hurt? > Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? Maybe the computer is the escape for people that fall in to that category, but maybe there is more to it than just isolation. Personally I think isolation makes a bad thing worse. I've seen programmers work for companies that were absolutely gifted but they were kept as far behind the scenes as possible due to their lack of social skills and I'm not just talking about taking a bath or changing clothes. And according to their family they were doing ok as people until they discovered the computer, and then they somehow shut out the world. So the tendency must have been there already, but the machine amplified that to some extent. Again, probably nothing you could have read about that would have warned you. But I know of at least one person whose story I would love to read, if only he were around to write it, there might be a warning in there for some of us that really would make a difference. > Perhaps the problem is the other way around: programming attracts such people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. Yes, I believe that is true. > If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Not sure about that. As I wrote above, I have no evidence or idea of whether it would help, but since programming seems to attract such people the place to warn them would be in a place where those interested in their health would read about it, say a book about programmers and their health. BTW, I'm upset at the way you're being downvoted in this thread, I'd prefer those that downvote to articulate their point of view instead of this silly piling on mob voting. The point you made was articulate, maybe unpopular but it definitely added to the discussion because it brought some interesting stuff to light.

jacquesm 16y ago

> contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive > I'm asking for evidence of that I can't speak for 'mechanical_fish' but I've seen plenty of evidence of that, including two very sad cases (very smart but socially mal-adapted people that ended up living more or less like hermits).

Confusion 16y ago
But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? The problem may be the other way around: programming attracts people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Only someone physically near that cares can help and then we are still supposing that these people are unhappy. Mechanical_fish needs company and social interactions, which is pretty normal. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs it. You run the risk of imposing your moral standard about 'socializing' on others, that can, and want to, get by with little social interaction.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? I think the dialogue with the computer gave them what they never could get from having a dialogue with people, someone that could keep up with them and that understood them in a way that few people ever would be able to. > If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Physicists don't as a rule work from their houses with curtains in front of the window to block out the daylight and nothing but food ordered by phone. As a software guy you can easily get away with that, and with the virtual office trend we're even formalizing that whole concept. > Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? That's a really good question, and I haven't a clue about an answer for you. Would it have hurt? > Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? Maybe the computer is the escape for people that fall in to that category, but maybe there is more to it than just isolation. Personally I think isolation makes a bad thing worse. I've seen programmers work for companies that were absolutely gifted but they were kept as far behind the scenes as possible due to their lack of social skills and I'm not just talking about taking a bath or changing clothes. And according to their family they were doing ok as people until they discovered the computer, and then they somehow shut out the world. So the tendency must have been there already, but the machine amplified that to some extent. Again, probably nothing you could have read about that would have warned you. But I know of at least one person whose story I would love to read, if only he were around to write it, there might be a warning in there for some of us that really would make a difference. > Perhaps the problem is the other way around: programming attracts such people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. Yes, I believe that is true. > If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Not sure about that. As I wrote above, I have no evidence or idea of whether it would help, but since programming seems to attract such people the place to warn them would be in a place where those interested in their health would read about it, say a book about programmers and their health. BTW, I'm upset at the way you're being downvoted in this thread, I'd prefer those that downvote to articulate their point of view instead of this silly piling on mob voting. The point you made was articulate, maybe unpopular but it definitely added to the discussion because it brought some interesting stuff to light.