6 ms·

Welcome to developing in 2016-201X, were you spend 60% of your time configuring tooling, 35% developing test and 5% developing your app.

awalton 9y ago
Cute that you think this started in 2016...
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  To be fair, i originally wanted to put 2010 but there are so many butthurt nodejs fans that will get easily offended.
  - dotandimet 9y ago
    Take it down another decade. Or two. There are versions of Old/Super/Hyper in libraries and frameworks for Java, Perl, Python... Once you get the Internet, the hype cycle keeps speeding up
    - doublerebel 9y ago
      Hey dude, it looks like you've been shadowbanned for years and I don't immediately see why. Just vouched for this one. Thanks for your comments hopefully it all works out this holiday.
nip 9y ago
Or stick to something that works for you and keep using the same tool over and over again. No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language. Let others experiment. You’ll be happy to reap the benefits of their work when something mature comes out of it.
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  > No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language Except everyone is using them and you get quickly outdated, specially if you are looking for a job with heavy experience on python, php and asp.net web development. The market already shifted to "3 Years worth of experience on Parcel".
- weego 9y ago
  I agree in a lot of environments, but web/js build tools seem to have a high frequency of fragmenting and becoming abandoned before any real long-term maturity is established.
  - deoxxa 9y ago
    It sure looks that way if you follow the news, but my webpack config has barely changed for two years now and I'm still getting work done.
    - doublerebel 9y ago
      My gulp configs have barely changed in 4 years. But we have to convince people to work together and stop jumping ship rather than ignoring the process. I don't think Node has this figured out yet unfortunately. Too much hubris.
- nathan_long 9y ago
  > No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language. Tell me that when you get turned down in a job interview because you don't know <JS framework of the year>.
  - tropshop 9y ago
    Try working on your positioning so that you are not hitched to the <JS framework of the year>. You will forever be competing with the low end of the market if you cannot market yourself.
djstein 9y ago
35% developing tests? What great institution do you work for?
- IanCal 9y ago
  Depends if they're talking about adding tests or battling tests/test frameworks to just get something out.
  - iamcasen 9y ago
    Oh man, this is my life. Spurious integration tests that are critical, but very complex and often times have timeouts in our test runner depending on how many builds are going in there. I might take 1 day on the feature, and then 3 more days just getting it past the testing gauntlet
- je42 9y ago
  90% developer tests here
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  Slack /s
- JepZ 9y ago
  They probably code using Barliman[1] ;-) </joke> [1] https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman
borellvi 9y ago
Have you ever tried a tool like https://github.com/facebookincubator/create-react-app https://github.com/facebookincubator/create-react-app ? It makes your comment totally irrelevant.
- Boxxed 9y ago
  Unfortunately the whole world isn't developing a react app. And the fact that create-react-app even exists is definitely proving the point!
  - borellvi 9y ago
    Is not about React, it is about tools that makes our life easier. If you want you can stick to ES5, no frameworks, no tools but good luck scaling your app to work with a big teams.
    - lhorie 9y ago
      IMHO, unless your company is also working on a tool like Bazel or Buck, you don't really have a team scalability problem.
    - notheguyouthink 9y ago
      Yea, as a user of CRNA (create react native app) with a moderately simple app, dependency hell is something we're already in. We don't see a choice, for reasons, but CNRA is definitely not somehow above these problems. Node/JS in general has a pretty terrible track record for me with version hell.
    - tropshop 9y ago
      Strong technical leadership and defining clear code boundaries is the secret sauce to scaling successfully. The shiniest tooling will not save your team.
at-fates-hands 9y ago
THIS. I used to love writing code and building stuff from scratch. Nowadays it's exactly what you said. I spend more time configuring stuff and finding tools that work well together than actually writing the underlying code that makes the app or the website work.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  How about you don't do that, then? What is stopping you from developing things like you used to? Those older tools still work.
  - SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
    Go try to find a job that doesn't require any of the new tooling experience or look at the other extreme... looks for those asking 15-years proven experience of Cobol.
- mlsarecmg 9y ago
  I don't agree at all. Building things from scratch has never been easier. The difference is, today you can build highly complex stuff "from scratch" as easy as simple things. Components are ready to use, javascript and node can steer robots, machines, drive mobile and desktop applications, etc. All of this is set up like nothing. In the same time it costs you to boot up notepad.exe and create a HTML wireframe, create-react-app/electron/etc has already set up an application that is modular, knows dependencies and resources, is debuggable, can hot reload, etc. The time you would spend to get this manually ... it wouldn't even be fair to compare.
  - SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
    > In the same time it costs you to boot up notepad.exe and create a HTML wireframe, create-react-app/electron/etc has already set up an application that is modular, knows dependencies and resources, is debuggable, can hot reload, etc. The time you would spend to get this manually ... it wouldn't even be fair to compare. Most of the times you don't need any of those things, you don't need modularization, you don't need a dependency manager, you don't need a debuggable version (because you are working on plain versions without minifies or module bundlers that compress your code), you don't need hot-reload (because you aren't using a transpiler/compiler-to-js), you don't need the hot-and-untested framework, sometimes you don't even need a source control. The big difference between that and going from scratch is that you choose what you want based on your needs not because everyone or a framework tells you "this is the right path", current state of web development increases "lego developers" to rise and shine like if they were expert.
hannofcart 9y ago
Sounds good to me. If I could spend 60 hours on developing the initial tooling, and if I could spend just 5 hours writing minimal code to get things working as I want, and spend the rest of the 35 hours on testing and making everything watertight, I'd call it a job well done.
- nimchimpsky 9y ago
  That sounds awful
- Udik 9y ago
  It sounds awful, both for you and for the employer/ customer who pays you for only 5% of your time being actually spent in implementing features.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Features that break other features (or introduce vulnerabilities) because they haven't been through a basic testing are anti-features.
    - Udik 9y ago
      Sure. I don't write any tests (luckily I don't work on a business-critical system), and 10% of my time is dedicated to fixing features that were broken accidentally. And now? 90% of my time is still dedicated to developing new features.
      - SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
        Don't bother feeding the trolls, r00fus it's a lego developer, if their framework doesn't support they will rebuilt everything from the scratch or mark it was wont-fix, for devs like him is that we can have nice things.

awalton 9y ago

Cute that you think this started in 2016...

SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
To be fair, i originally wanted to put 2010 but there are so many butthurt nodejs fans that will get easily offended.
- dotandimet 9y ago
  Take it down another decade. Or two. There are versions of Old/Super/Hyper in libraries and frameworks for Java, Perl, Python... Once you get the Internet, the hype cycle keeps speeding up
  - doublerebel 9y ago
    Hey dude, it looks like you've been shadowbanned for years and I don't immediately see why. Just vouched for this one. Thanks for your comments hopefully it all works out this holiday.

nip 9y ago

Or stick to something that works for you and keep using the same tool over and over again. No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language. Let others experiment. You’ll be happy to reap the benefits of their work when something mature comes out of it.

SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
> No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language Except everyone is using them and you get quickly outdated, specially if you are looking for a job with heavy experience on python, php and asp.net web development. The market already shifted to "3 Years worth of experience on Parcel".
weego 9y ago
I agree in a lot of environments, but web/js build tools seem to have a high frequency of fragmenting and becoming abandoned before any real long-term maturity is established.
- deoxxa 9y ago
  It sure looks that way if you follow the news, but my webpack config has barely changed for two years now and I'm still getting work done.
  - doublerebel 9y ago
    My gulp configs have barely changed in 4 years. But we have to convince people to work together and stop jumping ship rather than ignoring the process. I don't think Node has this figured out yet unfortunately. Too much hubris.
nathan_long 9y ago
> No one is forcing you to use the latest bundler / tool / programming language. Tell me that when you get turned down in a job interview because you don't know <JS framework of the year>.
- tropshop 9y ago
  Try working on your positioning so that you are not hitched to the <JS framework of the year>. You will forever be competing with the low end of the market if you cannot market yourself.

djstein 9y ago

35% developing tests? What great institution do you work for?

IanCal 9y ago
Depends if they're talking about adding tests or battling tests/test frameworks to just get something out.
- iamcasen 9y ago
  Oh man, this is my life. Spurious integration tests that are critical, but very complex and often times have timeouts in our test runner depending on how many builds are going in there. I might take 1 day on the feature, and then 3 more days just getting it past the testing gauntlet
je42 9y ago
90% developer tests here
SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
Slack /s
JepZ 9y ago
They probably code using Barliman[1] ;-) </joke> [1] https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman https://github.com/webyrd/Barliman

borellvi 9y ago

Have you ever tried a tool like https://github.com/facebookincubator/create-react-app https://github.com/facebookincubator/create-react-app ? It makes your comment totally irrelevant.

Boxxed 9y ago
Unfortunately the whole world isn't developing a react app. And the fact that create-react-app even exists is definitely proving the point!
- borellvi 9y ago
  Is not about React, it is about tools that makes our life easier. If you want you can stick to ES5, no frameworks, no tools but good luck scaling your app to work with a big teams.
  - lhorie 9y ago
    IMHO, unless your company is also working on a tool like Bazel or Buck, you don't really have a team scalability problem.
  - notheguyouthink 9y ago
    Yea, as a user of CRNA (create react native app) with a moderately simple app, dependency hell is something we're already in. We don't see a choice, for reasons, but CNRA is definitely not somehow above these problems. Node/JS in general has a pretty terrible track record for me with version hell.
  - tropshop 9y ago
    Strong technical leadership and defining clear code boundaries is the secret sauce to scaling successfully. The shiniest tooling will not save your team.

at-fates-hands 9y ago

THIS. I used to love writing code and building stuff from scratch. Nowadays it's exactly what you said. I spend more time configuring stuff and finding tools that work well together than actually writing the underlying code that makes the app or the website work.

cortesoft 9y ago
How about you don't do that, then? What is stopping you from developing things like you used to? Those older tools still work.
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  Go try to find a job that doesn't require any of the new tooling experience or look at the other extreme... looks for those asking 15-years proven experience of Cobol.
mlsarecmg 9y ago
I don't agree at all. Building things from scratch has never been easier. The difference is, today you can build highly complex stuff "from scratch" as easy as simple things. Components are ready to use, javascript and node can steer robots, machines, drive mobile and desktop applications, etc. All of this is set up like nothing. In the same time it costs you to boot up notepad.exe and create a HTML wireframe, create-react-app/electron/etc has already set up an application that is modular, knows dependencies and resources, is debuggable, can hot reload, etc. The time you would spend to get this manually ... it wouldn't even be fair to compare.
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  > In the same time it costs you to boot up notepad.exe and create a HTML wireframe, create-react-app/electron/etc has already set up an application that is modular, knows dependencies and resources, is debuggable, can hot reload, etc. The time you would spend to get this manually ... it wouldn't even be fair to compare. Most of the times you don't need any of those things, you don't need modularization, you don't need a dependency manager, you don't need a debuggable version (because you are working on plain versions without minifies or module bundlers that compress your code), you don't need hot-reload (because you aren't using a transpiler/compiler-to-js), you don't need the hot-and-untested framework, sometimes you don't even need a source control. The big difference between that and going from scratch is that you choose what you want based on your needs not because everyone or a framework tells you "this is the right path", current state of web development increases "lego developers" to rise and shine like if they were expert.

hannofcart 9y ago

Sounds good to me. If I could spend 60 hours on developing the initial tooling, and if I could spend just 5 hours writing minimal code to get things working as I want, and spend the rest of the 35 hours on testing and making everything watertight, I'd call it a job well done.

nimchimpsky 9y ago
That sounds awful
Udik 9y ago
It sounds awful, both for you and for the employer/ customer who pays you for only 5% of your time being actually spent in implementing features.
- r00fus 9y ago
  Features that break other features (or introduce vulnerabilities) because they haven't been through a basic testing are anti-features.
  - Udik 9y ago
    Sure. I don't write any tests (luckily I don't work on a business-critical system), and 10% of my time is dedicated to fixing features that were broken accidentally. And now? 90% of my time is still dedicated to developing new features.
    - SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
      Don't bother feeding the trolls, r00fus it's a lego developer, if their framework doesn't support they will rebuilt everything from the scratch or mark it was wont-fix, for devs like him is that we can have nice things.