9 ms·

Ask HN: What is the best city to start a start-up in Europe?

49 points by roschdal 16y ago

What is the best city to start a start-up in Europe?

neuromancer2600 16y ago
There was a very similar thread not too long ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375
- roschdal 16y ago
  My question is different, because I'm asking about Europe specifically.
  - bitboxer 16y ago
    Than pick the european cities from that thread :) .
appl3star 16y ago
London, Berlin, Barcelona, Hamburg
- roschdal 16y ago
  Why? Cost of living is very high in London.
  - bhattisatish 16y ago
    Compared to Eastern Europe and Southern Europe, yes. But if you compare London against Germany or any of the northern siblings (Scandinavia region for instance), London is very cheap. If cost of living is your highest priority, then cities in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Italy and Spain (in that order) will be your favourite. But then that's just not what a startup needs, doesn't it? In case of software, London has the best ecosystem. London is also not bad for lifestyle, etc ...
    - riffraff 16y ago
      Czechoslovakia? I believe life cost and style, from what I've seen, is quite different between the czech republic and slovakia
      - Ras_ 16y ago
        True. I also know a few who have relocated from Budapest (Hungary) to Prague (Czech R) after completing university. More jobs, better wage, better living standards. Slovakia has improved a lot lately. Some thing which I didn't expect before visiting Slovakia, was the lack of English skills among youth. They seemed to speak better German than English.
    - dtegart 16y ago
      In my experience, London is more expensive than just about anywhere in the world. If you need cheap, my recommendation is Berlin, housing and office costs are very low, and if you are coming from anywhere else in Europe almost everyone speaks English which is quite handy
      - bhattisatish 16y ago
        Try living in Tokyo and Scandinavian cities :) I am currently living in Finland and just finished a small tour of the Scandinavian region. The costs here compared to London are not comparable. Other then rent, everything else is way out expensive compared to London. But if you are ready to travel a bit daily you can offset that rent cost. But then you cannot beat the rest of environment. For e.g. number of fellow hackers / programmers, etc ...
        dtegart 16y ago
        Rent is the main factor that makes London expensive, so if there is someway to get free housing, your other costs won't be too bad.
    - jules 16y ago
      London cheap compared to Germany?! Compared to Scandinavia perhaps, Germany no.
bjonathan 16y ago
1) london for the ecosystem 2) berlin for the quality/cost of living and a pretty booming ecosystem
falsestprophet 16y ago
Paris. The business culture here is so toxic and aristocratic that you could probably recruit any developer by promising to not terrorize him. (An internationally competitive salary is not required: small steps.)
- nolite 16y ago
  Yeah, this is exactly why it will never happen in Paris. (I live there too)
- mickeyben 16y ago
  Cost of living is very hight, taxes are very hight, there's not a lot of VCs (compared to SF, NY, london or berlin), bureaucracy is a hell in france from opening a bank account to pay bills or taxes, it's difficult to get a work visa ...
  - cdavid 16y ago
    Are you basing this on facts ? Cost of living is indeed high (much lower than London though), but taxes are not so much higher than in many other countries in West Europe. You will need a French account manager from time to time so that you benefit from various tax cuts, especially in the first few years. I am curious about the banking issue as well. Never heard of it being that difficult. Working visa are indeed becoming increasingly difficult, but I am afraid this is a trend that is not restricted to France. I think the issues in Paris are much closer to the toxic environment mentioned by the OP. I know several people who founded their own company just to avoid the usual IT job which consists in being a semi-slave for one of the numerous consulting companies.
    - mickeyben 16y ago
      Taxes are very hight to afford for a startup, I don't have numbers right there but look at what cost an employee in France ... and taking advantages of government support for young companies requires a skill in french bureaucracy that not all entrepreneurs have + it's often harder to get it when you're not a french entrepreneur. Banking was just an example about bureaucracy in general. You'll spend way more time in France to setup simple things, need way more papers, seriously it's a pain ! I can't compare with lot of countries but by experience it's far more easier in Berlin or in SF. And about the issue about being a semi-slave : I worked for many startups in Paris and I never felt that. Of course if you take the consulting way you can't really compare with startups. And yes an internationally competitive salary is required and it costs an arm for the employer.
hcho 16y ago
Define start up. Are you going to be profitable from day one? London, that's where the big money is. Do you need VC money? London, that's where the big money is. Are you self financing and have limited run way? Go to cheaper places.
- chomchom 16y ago
  I second this, if you think you can get to money within the first year get yourself to London. If you are within the UK and can't get to money within the first year, live within 1 hour commuting distance and plan to move there. This has worked pretty well for me. It is extremely expensive to be able to live here but the ability to casually attend and walk to serendipity tech networking events is a real luxury and I save a lot of money commuting. The lively eco system around the Techhub interested people is exciting and I recommend it.
  - topbanana 16y ago
    I third this. I've avoided London for many years (traffic, overpopulation, cost) but now that I'm here I realise I should have done it earlier. It's almost like another country - everything is going on here.
Keyframe 16y ago
I'd personally opt for either Prague or Frankfurt on one hand or Geneva or London, if you could sustain it financially, on the other hand.
- rmoriz 16y ago
  Frankfurt/Main? Why? Besides the banking sector the city is dead. No user group activities, no "cool shops" or startups. Highly expensive like Munich and Hamburg without having real benefits besides the great airport.
  - Keyframe 16y ago
    I should have been more clearer though. It's a TV hub also, which lines up with my interests. :) Muenchen is more of a film hub, and to an extent Hamburg also.
- zmmz 16y ago
  Prague? That's insane, its close to being the worst place to be a startup: http://www.praguepost.com/business/3757-venture-capital-hard-to-find-in-cr.html http://www.praguepost.com/business/3757-venture-capital-hard... I also have a hard time believing Geneva, have you actually been there? In Switzerland I would understand Zurich or Lausanne, but Geneva does not even have a technical university, compare that with ETH and EPFL.
  - mace 16y ago
    I would think Zurich would be pretty good for the following reasons: * ETH (availability of talent from a good computer science research university) * Good transportation alternatives (you can get a direct flight to/from Zurich from/to most major airports, direct high speed trains are also available to France and Germany) * Business friendly tax rates (relative to other European countries) * Switzerland, in general, has high quality of life Side note, Google has a sizable office in Zurich and is able to attract and keep talent from both Western and Eastern Europe.
harscoat 16y ago
Berlin as explained by many here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375
adamt 16y ago
I am surprised no-one has mentioned, Cambridge. * 7% of all of European VC is invested in Cambridge (http://noweurope.com/2010/01/13/case-study-what-can-we-learn-from-europes-most-successful-cluster/ http://noweurope.com/2010/01/13/case-study-what-can-we-learn...), which is not bad for a City of 125,000 people. * Close enough (50 mins by train) from London's ecosystem of VCs * Close to Stansted airport for easy access to the rest of Europe * Large density of tech companies, and tech competent employees. Similarly the professional advisors (lawyers/accountants) etc understand startups. * Costs are (generally speaking) considerably less than London. Most costs (rent, salaries, professional fees) are 20-33% cheaper than London. * Pleasant attractive historic town. * One of the world's best universities, along with a significant research presence from the likes of Microsoft ensures there's lots of smart people about. * For a long time Cambridge companies have been interesting startups but not made successful large businesses but the likes of ARM, Autonomy, CSR etc have all grown up to be billion dollar businesses.
- Chris_Newton 16y ago
  Agreed on almost everything (as a Cambridge guy with entrepreneurial tendencies). It's worth knowing that the average house price in Cambridge itself is now higher than the average in London, though, and that the local authorities are almost religiously anti-car, which makes the city centre area much less attractive (in a business sense). If I were planning a start-up with funding for significant numbers of staff, I would probably aim to be based on one of the business parks on the outskirts, or in one of the smaller towns/villages close by. That way, you're still within easy reach of the people, industry and support services, but day-to-day running costs and accessibility for local employees who don't want to walk/cycle in every day and for professional visitors driving to your premises are better.
  - blasdel 16y ago
    Wow, you'd love Houston Texas! It seems a bit daft to be choosing a location based on the convenience of the hypothetical middle managers and mailroom employees you'll have in a successful future. Sure it's professional, but it isn't startup. Burn your business plan, remember?
jasonkester 16y ago
Interesting question. I think once you get outside of the Bay Area, it really doesn't matter anymore where you are. SF has the whole echo chamber thing going for it, which can be a huge advantage, and it has tons of little startups to interact with. Nowhere else has either of those, so there's no particular reason to pick one place over another. In Europe, I've set up shop in Pamplona, Chamonix, Kalymnos, and now in a little town up in the Lake District of England. Each has pretty much exactly the same startup culture, consisting entirely of me and whatever other developers I've brought out with me.
- phileuro 16y ago
  Yes, I am in Southern Spain and the concept of being an entrepreneur and starting a company seems to be completely foreign (pun intended!). There is a department in Andalusia that is supposed to help startups but they seem to focus on startups with very high capital behind them already - they point blank refused to help my company do anything (even finding an accountant!).
rmoriz 16y ago
There a some people recommending Bratislava: next to Vienna, great place to live and still cheap. Would be interested in hearing more about it. Anyone?
- abless 16y ago
  Bratislava is probably not as cheap as you might think - yes, Slovakia in general is very cheap and that might be true for most parts of the country, but Bratislava is more westernized. Don't get me wrong though, it is still cheaper than the average city in Western Europe. I am not sure if there is much of a startup culture here, though...
- SkyMarshal 16y ago
  /second. Was going to ask about this too. Interesting blurb on it in another Ask HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 "Bratislava- Near vienna, but relatively low cost. Seems to be growing in leaps and bounds and has a well educated populace. Environment of low regulation and capitalism, so this could be the startup hub of the next decade. Might not be that now."
fauigerzigerk 16y ago
Apart from UK cities I would also check out Dublin. Barcelona does have a startup scene as well but spanish laws and regulations are generally insane.
- makeplaylearn 16y ago
  Dublin is insanely expensive, and not to put too fine a point on it, but every Irish investor will hold his breath until you get the much-required Enterprise Ireland seal of potential approval. As a place to live, Dublin is actually more expensive than either London or New York. In both London & NY you have the option to go down market. Cheaper digs, more suppliers, more options. Dublin is a small city with few options on many levels.
  - earnubs 16y ago
    Also, having worked in a (very) well funded Dublin based start-up, I would add that the infrastructure isn't great.
    - makeplaylearn 16y ago
      Infrastructure? What infrastructure? http://almacz.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/living-in-eire/ http://almacz.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/living-in-eire/
  - rmc 16y ago
    Seconded. As a native Dubliner, I am always impressed with how cheap other european cities are when I visit there.
socksy 16y ago
What's Edinburgh like? I was under the impression that a few companies had started up there from the university.
- andrewnimmo 16y ago
  Cold.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Have a look at http://techmeetup.co.uk/ http://techmeetup.co.uk/ I went to the Techcrunch event in May and there seemed a few interesting wee companies and at least one sensible VC around. Edinburgh is a gorgeous city with a great atmosphere and fairly convenient for the Highlands if you like outdoor sports (the skiing in Scotland last year was particularly awesome). The main downside to Edinburgh is that travel can be a bit painful - although it is a lot better than it used to be.
makeplaylearn 16y ago
Any thoughts on carrying the message to Newcastle &/or thedifferenceengine.eu
paolomaffei 16y ago
Glad no one mentioned Italy, don't even think about it. Just founding a limited liability company costs 6000euros+ (2500 of those are to be put in as starting capital MANDATORY and the rest is pure cost)
- gizmo 16y ago
  That's not a lot of money. Neither relatively nor absolutely. For contrast, starting a GmbH in Germany (llc equivalent) requires a 25000 euro investment plus all the fees and legal cost. Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requiresna 18000 euro investment, again not including overhead and registration. The US is the exception, with its liberal LLC and bankrupty laws. In europe there just are a few additional hurdles. I agree that italy should be avoided, but for other reasons (mentality, corruption, etc)
  - bnoordhuis 16y ago
    The 18K liquidity requirement for Dutch BVs is about to be dropped, if indeed it hasn't already. It's a trivial obstacle anyway. You only need the money in an account on the day of incorporation.There are a number of companies that will lend it to you - for a fee, of course. :-)
    - davidw 16y ago
      18K is in the range of what YC companies receive. It's not a 'trivial amount' - it's a bunch of extra hassle that one has to think about, especially if we're talking about a couple of kids just out of college with an idea and not a lot of money. And, at least in Italy, the 'social capital' thing means that the money has to go into the company somehow - you can't just borrow it and then give it back to the bank the next day.
      - Be_Silly 16y ago
        I can't comment on a specific other state, but in the UK, the PLC min. capital of GBP£50K can be provided in kind. (PLC is very loosly comparable to AG, A/S, SA, etc. . ) Maybe there are other exceptions like this you can use. Bear in mind, compliance costs of the higher forms of incorporation (which are suited to public or large shareholder bases, and come with rules to suit those needs) will always exceed up front instantiation expenses.
iaskwhy 16y ago
Some people claim Lisbon to be the upcoming Silicon Valley of Europe: http://seedcapital.pt/2009/11/18/lisbon-by-the-sea/ http://seedcapital.pt/2009/11/18/lisbon-by-the-sea/ That's where I live and work, can't say it's easy to get money but I'm pretty sure I don't know the right people yet. :)
- woodpanel 16y ago
  Been there once. A nice town. My first impression was: ok, how could i make a living here? I know some people who kept their clients from back home and moved there, so they make the same money but pay less for costs of living than in central europe, while enjoying the nice climate. Very clever I guess, but what keeps me from going the same route is, that you dont get far there without speaking portuguese though.
- presty 16y ago
  http://seedcapital.pt/ http://seedcapital.pt/
jonathandeamer 16y ago
Great thread! I have worked (and continue to work) for a handful of startup-type companies in Liverpool (NW England). I don't have a wide enough experience of European cities to say it's the best place to start a business, but it's a great place to live and relatively cheap to rent office space and similar. Historically there's been a good amount of public sector funding available (although whether that will continue under the coalition government remains to be seen!), but of course there isn't an "VC ecosystem" equivalent to that of London. All that said, there are amazing, interesting and fun people here doing cool things with tech, and there's the beginnings of a great scene. I love it :-) But my main reason for posting was to ask: is there a directory of some sort compiling answers to questions like this for cities globally, detailing the sort of recruitment and funding opportunities available, as well as what sort of startups are already based there? Almost like a "Crunchbase for cities"...might have to think about knocking such a thing together if it doesn't already exist!
ovi256 16y ago
SF/Silicon Valley. Seriously, if you have the freedom of choosing among cities, a hop across the pond is not a big deal. Might as well stack the chips in your favour.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Immigration issues are probably simpler for Europeans moving throughout Europe. Putting "Hi, I want to move to the US and do nothing visible, and oh, I have no money" on your US visa application is probably not going to put it in the "instant approval" stack, but that's what a startup is.
erikstarck 16y ago
There's quite a few things brewing in the Copenhagen/Malmö-region. Flattr is located there, Bambuser, Polar Rose and Neo4j are there and there's even a startup accelerator going on for the first time just now in Copenhagen: http://startupbootcamp.dk/ http://startupbootcamp.dk/ and another similar in a nearby university college http://www.startupcamp.se/ http://www.startupcamp.se/ But as you see from the other replies there's not one particular region that is so far ahead of the rest that it can be called the startup centre of Europe. Berlin, Barcelona, London, Stockholm... the startups of Europe are spread all over the place.
- pdelgallego 16y ago
  I just landed in CPH a couple on month ago, and I see a lot of potential in the Scandinavians countries as a niche market. The main problem is that salary and taxes are very high.
  - grk 16y ago
    On the other hand, the salaries are high enough that you can work for 2 days per week and support yourself while bootstrapping.
    - erikstarck 16y ago
      Well, that depends. Salary expenses are high but so are the taxes which means you as an employee don't get to keep very much. Remember, Sweden and Denmark hold the #1 and #2 position for highest taxes in the world. Having said that, I actually plan to be employed 4 days/week and try a startup on the 5th. We'll see...
      - ohashi 16y ago
        Hi Erik :) What happens to the 2 free days most people call a weekend?
- grk 16y ago
  It's quite expensive to start a company in Denmark. You need ~10k eur for a limited liability company (ApS) and to be stock-based you need ~70k eur (A/S). The startup scene is growing, there's a lot of pressure from the government to create new companies. See: http://venturecup.dk/ http://venturecup.dk/ http://www.vf.dk/?sc_lang=en http://www.vf.dk/?sc_lang=en
jkaljundi 16y ago
For anyone interested in Tallinn and Tartu in Estonia, we at http://startupleadersclub.com/ http://startupleadersclub.com/ are glad to help and give advice. The community is pretty strong. There are 2 larger world-class companies (Skype and Playtech) that have 3-400 people in tech & development here in Tallinn/Tartu, which can sometimes be a problem for startups competing with hiring. At the same time, many people are also leaving those big companies for startups. Still I believe locating sales, marketing and any customer facing operations in consumer space in SF Bay Area or NYC/Boulder etc. Having product development and anything tech related in Central and Eastern Europe makes a lot of sense on other hand.
phjohnst 16y ago
I'd definitely say London, purely for that fact that it has many of the same things that make Silicon Valley so appealing: a (relatively) thriving tech community, especially around the Old St area, it's close to VCs, there's lots of networking events, conferences, etc. Only downside is cost of living, which has frankly been overemphasized here. NY is just as expensive, and theres a pretty sweet scene there... London for sure.
toto 16y ago
(No offense) All the answers make no sense. How can you advise a country with so few information about the start-up? Dimensions to assess that would totally change the selected country: - A start-up in which business domain? - What will you sell? - Who are your targeted customer? Where are they located? - Where are you main competitors? - Where is the best "ecosystem" in your domain that could help you/partnership with? - Do you need some VCs? - Tax optimization requirements? - What is your "exit strategy"? Hint: be located close to your competitors, partners and of course... customers.
speleding 16y ago
There are a bunch of recommendations in a previous thread on HN "What is the best startup city outside the US" here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 Anyway, I like Amsterdam: People speak English and the state provides a lot of stuff for free if you're not making money yet (child care, health insurance, even access to museums). Once you start making money get out of there or pay the worst taxes in the world ;-)
adw 16y ago
London or Berlin are where all the action is in consumer and B2B web startups. They're where the money and markets are. If you're doing something connected with the media or financial industries, then I think there's a very good case that London's the best city in the world to start it; Silicon Valley doesn't have the depth in banks, advertising, publishing, music, TV, film or fashion. The only competition for those startups'd be New York. Net-a-Porter would never work in Silicon Valley. The Baltic states, especially Tallinn, have benefitted from Skype; the Scandinavian countries are full of developer talent. They're also full of English speakers, and if you're looking to go global, that doesn't hurt. If you're doing hardware or biotech, the answer's Cambridge, though.
Geea 16y ago
As some of you have already said it, some cities have a better ecosystem, others have a low cost of living but no ecosystem and crazy bureaucracy, others have low taxes. The solution is an offshore: you start your company in a low-taxes European country (Cyprus, Bulgaria) or a tax haven, you live close to an ecosystem (near London, for instance) and you hire developers from Eastern Europe (low wages, highly skilled).
- Ras_ 16y ago
  There are places for everything: Åland Islands (Fi) - no VAT Jersey (UK) - no VAT on goods sold, as long as items cost less than £18 and are posted individually, no import taxes to mainland UK Estonia - no corporate profit tax (flat 21% tax on dividends)

49 points by roschdal 16y ago

What is the best city to start a start-up in Europe?

There was a very similar thread not too long ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375

roschdal 16y ago
My question is different, because I'm asking about Europe specifically.
- bitboxer 16y ago
  Than pick the european cities from that thread :) .

appl3star 16y ago

London, Berlin, Barcelona, Hamburg

roschdal 16y ago
Why? Cost of living is very high in London.
- bhattisatish 16y ago
  Compared to Eastern Europe and Southern Europe, yes. But if you compare London against Germany or any of the northern siblings (Scandinavia region for instance), London is very cheap. If cost of living is your highest priority, then cities in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Italy and Spain (in that order) will be your favourite. But then that's just not what a startup needs, doesn't it? In case of software, London has the best ecosystem. London is also not bad for lifestyle, etc ...
  - riffraff 16y ago
    Czechoslovakia? I believe life cost and style, from what I've seen, is quite different between the czech republic and slovakia
    - Ras_ 16y ago
      True. I also know a few who have relocated from Budapest (Hungary) to Prague (Czech R) after completing university. More jobs, better wage, better living standards. Slovakia has improved a lot lately. Some thing which I didn't expect before visiting Slovakia, was the lack of English skills among youth. They seemed to speak better German than English.
  - dtegart 16y ago
    In my experience, London is more expensive than just about anywhere in the world. If you need cheap, my recommendation is Berlin, housing and office costs are very low, and if you are coming from anywhere else in Europe almost everyone speaks English which is quite handy
    - bhattisatish 16y ago
      Try living in Tokyo and Scandinavian cities :) I am currently living in Finland and just finished a small tour of the Scandinavian region. The costs here compared to London are not comparable. Other then rent, everything else is way out expensive compared to London. But if you are ready to travel a bit daily you can offset that rent cost. But then you cannot beat the rest of environment. For e.g. number of fellow hackers / programmers, etc ...
      - dtegart 16y ago
        Rent is the main factor that makes London expensive, so if there is someway to get free housing, your other costs won't be too bad.
  - jules 16y ago
    London cheap compared to Germany?! Compared to Scandinavia perhaps, Germany no.

bjonathan 16y ago

1) london for the ecosystem 2) berlin for the quality/cost of living and a pretty booming ecosystem

falsestprophet 16y ago

Paris. The business culture here is so toxic and aristocratic that you could probably recruit any developer by promising to not terrorize him. (An internationally competitive salary is not required: small steps.)

nolite 16y ago
Yeah, this is exactly why it will never happen in Paris. (I live there too)
mickeyben 16y ago
Cost of living is very hight, taxes are very hight, there's not a lot of VCs (compared to SF, NY, london or berlin), bureaucracy is a hell in france from opening a bank account to pay bills or taxes, it's difficult to get a work visa ...
- cdavid 16y ago
  Are you basing this on facts ? Cost of living is indeed high (much lower than London though), but taxes are not so much higher than in many other countries in West Europe. You will need a French account manager from time to time so that you benefit from various tax cuts, especially in the first few years. I am curious about the banking issue as well. Never heard of it being that difficult. Working visa are indeed becoming increasingly difficult, but I am afraid this is a trend that is not restricted to France. I think the issues in Paris are much closer to the toxic environment mentioned by the OP. I know several people who founded their own company just to avoid the usual IT job which consists in being a semi-slave for one of the numerous consulting companies.
  - mickeyben 16y ago
    Taxes are very hight to afford for a startup, I don't have numbers right there but look at what cost an employee in France ... and taking advantages of government support for young companies requires a skill in french bureaucracy that not all entrepreneurs have + it's often harder to get it when you're not a french entrepreneur. Banking was just an example about bureaucracy in general. You'll spend way more time in France to setup simple things, need way more papers, seriously it's a pain ! I can't compare with lot of countries but by experience it's far more easier in Berlin or in SF. And about the issue about being a semi-slave : I worked for many startups in Paris and I never felt that. Of course if you take the consulting way you can't really compare with startups. And yes an internationally competitive salary is required and it costs an arm for the employer.

hcho 16y ago

Define start up. Are you going to be profitable from day one? London, that's where the big money is. Do you need VC money? London, that's where the big money is. Are you self financing and have limited run way? Go to cheaper places.

chomchom 16y ago
I second this, if you think you can get to money within the first year get yourself to London. If you are within the UK and can't get to money within the first year, live within 1 hour commuting distance and plan to move there. This has worked pretty well for me. It is extremely expensive to be able to live here but the ability to casually attend and walk to serendipity tech networking events is a real luxury and I save a lot of money commuting. The lively eco system around the Techhub interested people is exciting and I recommend it.
- topbanana 16y ago
  I third this. I've avoided London for many years (traffic, overpopulation, cost) but now that I'm here I realise I should have done it earlier. It's almost like another country - everything is going on here.

Keyframe 16y ago

I'd personally opt for either Prague or Frankfurt on one hand or Geneva or London, if you could sustain it financially, on the other hand.

rmoriz 16y ago
Frankfurt/Main? Why? Besides the banking sector the city is dead. No user group activities, no "cool shops" or startups. Highly expensive like Munich and Hamburg without having real benefits besides the great airport.
- Keyframe 16y ago
  I should have been more clearer though. It's a TV hub also, which lines up with my interests. :) Muenchen is more of a film hub, and to an extent Hamburg also.
zmmz 16y ago
Prague? That's insane, its close to being the worst place to be a startup: http://www.praguepost.com/business/3757-venture-capital-hard-to-find-in-cr.html http://www.praguepost.com/business/3757-venture-capital-hard... I also have a hard time believing Geneva, have you actually been there? In Switzerland I would understand Zurich or Lausanne, but Geneva does not even have a technical university, compare that with ETH and EPFL.
- mace 16y ago
  I would think Zurich would be pretty good for the following reasons: * ETH (availability of talent from a good computer science research university) * Good transportation alternatives (you can get a direct flight to/from Zurich from/to most major airports, direct high speed trains are also available to France and Germany) * Business friendly tax rates (relative to other European countries) * Switzerland, in general, has high quality of life Side note, Google has a sizable office in Zurich and is able to attract and keep talent from both Western and Eastern Europe.

harscoat 16y ago

Berlin as explained by many here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375

adamt 16y ago

I am surprised no-one has mentioned, Cambridge. * 7% of all of European VC is invested in Cambridge (http://noweurope.com/2010/01/13/case-study-what-can-we-learn-from-europes-most-successful-cluster/ http://noweurope.com/2010/01/13/case-study-what-can-we-learn...), which is not bad for a City of 125,000 people. * Close enough (50 mins by train) from London's ecosystem of VCs * Close to Stansted airport for easy access to the rest of Europe * Large density of tech companies, and tech competent employees. Similarly the professional advisors (lawyers/accountants) etc understand startups. * Costs are (generally speaking) considerably less than London. Most costs (rent, salaries, professional fees) are 20-33% cheaper than London. * Pleasant attractive historic town. * One of the world's best universities, along with a significant research presence from the likes of Microsoft ensures there's lots of smart people about. * For a long time Cambridge companies have been interesting startups but not made successful large businesses but the likes of ARM, Autonomy, CSR etc have all grown up to be billion dollar businesses.

Chris_Newton 16y ago
Agreed on almost everything (as a Cambridge guy with entrepreneurial tendencies). It's worth knowing that the average house price in Cambridge itself is now higher than the average in London, though, and that the local authorities are almost religiously anti-car, which makes the city centre area much less attractive (in a business sense). If I were planning a start-up with funding for significant numbers of staff, I would probably aim to be based on one of the business parks on the outskirts, or in one of the smaller towns/villages close by. That way, you're still within easy reach of the people, industry and support services, but day-to-day running costs and accessibility for local employees who don't want to walk/cycle in every day and for professional visitors driving to your premises are better.
- blasdel 16y ago
  Wow, you'd love Houston Texas! It seems a bit daft to be choosing a location based on the convenience of the hypothetical middle managers and mailroom employees you'll have in a successful future. Sure it's professional, but it isn't startup. Burn your business plan, remember?

jasonkester 16y ago

Interesting question. I think once you get outside of the Bay Area, it really doesn't matter anymore where you are. SF has the whole echo chamber thing going for it, which can be a huge advantage, and it has tons of little startups to interact with. Nowhere else has either of those, so there's no particular reason to pick one place over another. In Europe, I've set up shop in Pamplona, Chamonix, Kalymnos, and now in a little town up in the Lake District of England. Each has pretty much exactly the same startup culture, consisting entirely of me and whatever other developers I've brought out with me.

phileuro 16y ago
Yes, I am in Southern Spain and the concept of being an entrepreneur and starting a company seems to be completely foreign (pun intended!). There is a department in Andalusia that is supposed to help startups but they seem to focus on startups with very high capital behind them already - they point blank refused to help my company do anything (even finding an accountant!).

rmoriz 16y ago

There a some people recommending Bratislava: next to Vienna, great place to live and still cheap. Would be interested in hearing more about it. Anyone?

abless 16y ago
Bratislava is probably not as cheap as you might think - yes, Slovakia in general is very cheap and that might be true for most parts of the country, but Bratislava is more westernized. Don't get me wrong though, it is still cheaper than the average city in Western Europe. I am not sure if there is much of a startup culture here, though...
SkyMarshal 16y ago
/second. Was going to ask about this too. Interesting blurb on it in another Ask HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 "Bratislava- Near vienna, but relatively low cost. Seems to be growing in leaps and bounds and has a well educated populace. Environment of low regulation and capitalism, so this could be the startup hub of the next decade. Might not be that now."

fauigerzigerk 16y ago

Apart from UK cities I would also check out Dublin. Barcelona does have a startup scene as well but spanish laws and regulations are generally insane.

makeplaylearn 16y ago
Dublin is insanely expensive, and not to put too fine a point on it, but every Irish investor will hold his breath until you get the much-required Enterprise Ireland seal of potential approval. As a place to live, Dublin is actually more expensive than either London or New York. In both London & NY you have the option to go down market. Cheaper digs, more suppliers, more options. Dublin is a small city with few options on many levels.
- earnubs 16y ago
  Also, having worked in a (very) well funded Dublin based start-up, I would add that the infrastructure isn't great.
  - makeplaylearn 16y ago
    Infrastructure? What infrastructure? http://almacz.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/living-in-eire/ http://almacz.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/living-in-eire/
- rmc 16y ago
  Seconded. As a native Dubliner, I am always impressed with how cheap other european cities are when I visit there.

socksy 16y ago

What's Edinburgh like? I was under the impression that a few companies had started up there from the university.

andrewnimmo 16y ago
Cold.
arethuza 16y ago
Have a look at http://techmeetup.co.uk/ http://techmeetup.co.uk/ I went to the Techcrunch event in May and there seemed a few interesting wee companies and at least one sensible VC around. Edinburgh is a gorgeous city with a great atmosphere and fairly convenient for the Highlands if you like outdoor sports (the skiing in Scotland last year was particularly awesome). The main downside to Edinburgh is that travel can be a bit painful - although it is a lot better than it used to be.

makeplaylearn 16y ago

Any thoughts on carrying the message to Newcastle &/or thedifferenceengine.eu

paolomaffei 16y ago

Glad no one mentioned Italy, don't even think about it. Just founding a limited liability company costs 6000euros+ (2500 of those are to be put in as starting capital MANDATORY and the rest is pure cost)

gizmo 16y ago
That's not a lot of money. Neither relatively nor absolutely. For contrast, starting a GmbH in Germany (llc equivalent) requires a 25000 euro investment plus all the fees and legal cost. Starting a B.V. in the Netherlands requiresna 18000 euro investment, again not including overhead and registration. The US is the exception, with its liberal LLC and bankrupty laws. In europe there just are a few additional hurdles. I agree that italy should be avoided, but for other reasons (mentality, corruption, etc)
- bnoordhuis 16y ago
  The 18K liquidity requirement for Dutch BVs is about to be dropped, if indeed it hasn't already. It's a trivial obstacle anyway. You only need the money in an account on the day of incorporation.There are a number of companies that will lend it to you - for a fee, of course. :-)
  - davidw 16y ago
    18K is in the range of what YC companies receive. It's not a 'trivial amount' - it's a bunch of extra hassle that one has to think about, especially if we're talking about a couple of kids just out of college with an idea and not a lot of money. And, at least in Italy, the 'social capital' thing means that the money has to go into the company somehow - you can't just borrow it and then give it back to the bank the next day.
    - Be_Silly 16y ago
      I can't comment on a specific other state, but in the UK, the PLC min. capital of GBP£50K can be provided in kind. (PLC is very loosly comparable to AG, A/S, SA, etc. . ) Maybe there are other exceptions like this you can use. Bear in mind, compliance costs of the higher forms of incorporation (which are suited to public or large shareholder bases, and come with rules to suit those needs) will always exceed up front instantiation expenses.

iaskwhy 16y ago

Some people claim Lisbon to be the upcoming Silicon Valley of Europe: http://seedcapital.pt/2009/11/18/lisbon-by-the-sea/ http://seedcapital.pt/2009/11/18/lisbon-by-the-sea/ That's where I live and work, can't say it's easy to get money but I'm pretty sure I don't know the right people yet. :)

woodpanel 16y ago
Been there once. A nice town. My first impression was: ok, how could i make a living here? I know some people who kept their clients from back home and moved there, so they make the same money but pay less for costs of living than in central europe, while enjoying the nice climate. Very clever I guess, but what keeps me from going the same route is, that you dont get far there without speaking portuguese though.
presty 16y ago
http://seedcapital.pt/ http://seedcapital.pt/

jonathandeamer 16y ago

Great thread! I have worked (and continue to work) for a handful of startup-type companies in Liverpool (NW England). I don't have a wide enough experience of European cities to say it's the best place to start a business, but it's a great place to live and relatively cheap to rent office space and similar. Historically there's been a good amount of public sector funding available (although whether that will continue under the coalition government remains to be seen!), but of course there isn't an "VC ecosystem" equivalent to that of London. All that said, there are amazing, interesting and fun people here doing cool things with tech, and there's the beginnings of a great scene. I love it :-) But my main reason for posting was to ask: is there a directory of some sort compiling answers to questions like this for cities globally, detailing the sort of recruitment and funding opportunities available, as well as what sort of startups are already based there? Almost like a "Crunchbase for cities"...might have to think about knocking such a thing together if it doesn't already exist!

ovi256 16y ago

SF/Silicon Valley. Seriously, if you have the freedom of choosing among cities, a hop across the pond is not a big deal. Might as well stack the chips in your favour.

jrockway 16y ago
Immigration issues are probably simpler for Europeans moving throughout Europe. Putting "Hi, I want to move to the US and do nothing visible, and oh, I have no money" on your US visa application is probably not going to put it in the "instant approval" stack, but that's what a startup is.

erikstarck 16y ago

There's quite a few things brewing in the Copenhagen/Malmö-region. Flattr is located there, Bambuser, Polar Rose and Neo4j are there and there's even a startup accelerator going on for the first time just now in Copenhagen: http://startupbootcamp.dk/ http://startupbootcamp.dk/ and another similar in a nearby university college http://www.startupcamp.se/ http://www.startupcamp.se/ But as you see from the other replies there's not one particular region that is so far ahead of the rest that it can be called the startup centre of Europe. Berlin, Barcelona, London, Stockholm... the startups of Europe are spread all over the place.

pdelgallego 16y ago
I just landed in CPH a couple on month ago, and I see a lot of potential in the Scandinavians countries as a niche market. The main problem is that salary and taxes are very high.
- grk 16y ago
  On the other hand, the salaries are high enough that you can work for 2 days per week and support yourself while bootstrapping.
  - erikstarck 16y ago
    Well, that depends. Salary expenses are high but so are the taxes which means you as an employee don't get to keep very much. Remember, Sweden and Denmark hold the #1 and #2 position for highest taxes in the world. Having said that, I actually plan to be employed 4 days/week and try a startup on the 5th. We'll see...
    - ohashi 16y ago
      Hi Erik :) What happens to the 2 free days most people call a weekend?
grk 16y ago
It's quite expensive to start a company in Denmark. You need ~10k eur for a limited liability company (ApS) and to be stock-based you need ~70k eur (A/S). The startup scene is growing, there's a lot of pressure from the government to create new companies. See: http://venturecup.dk/ http://venturecup.dk/ http://www.vf.dk/?sc_lang=en http://www.vf.dk/?sc_lang=en

jkaljundi 16y ago

For anyone interested in Tallinn and Tartu in Estonia, we at http://startupleadersclub.com/ http://startupleadersclub.com/ are glad to help and give advice. The community is pretty strong. There are 2 larger world-class companies (Skype and Playtech) that have 3-400 people in tech & development here in Tallinn/Tartu, which can sometimes be a problem for startups competing with hiring. At the same time, many people are also leaving those big companies for startups. Still I believe locating sales, marketing and any customer facing operations in consumer space in SF Bay Area or NYC/Boulder etc. Having product development and anything tech related in Central and Eastern Europe makes a lot of sense on other hand.

phjohnst 16y ago

I'd definitely say London, purely for that fact that it has many of the same things that make Silicon Valley so appealing: a (relatively) thriving tech community, especially around the Old St area, it's close to VCs, there's lots of networking events, conferences, etc. Only downside is cost of living, which has frankly been overemphasized here. NY is just as expensive, and theres a pretty sweet scene there... London for sure.

toto 16y ago

(No offense) All the answers make no sense. How can you advise a country with so few information about the start-up? Dimensions to assess that would totally change the selected country: - A start-up in which business domain? - What will you sell? - Who are your targeted customer? Where are they located? - Where are you main competitors? - Where is the best "ecosystem" in your domain that could help you/partnership with? - Do you need some VCs? - Tax optimization requirements? - What is your "exit strategy"? Hint: be located close to your competitors, partners and of course... customers.

speleding 16y ago

There are a bunch of recommendations in a previous thread on HN "What is the best startup city outside the US" here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 Anyway, I like Amsterdam: People speak English and the state provides a lot of stuff for free if you're not making money yet (child care, health insurance, even access to museums). Once you start making money get out of there or pay the worst taxes in the world ;-)

adw 16y ago

London or Berlin are where all the action is in consumer and B2B web startups. They're where the money and markets are. If you're doing something connected with the media or financial industries, then I think there's a very good case that London's the best city in the world to start it; Silicon Valley doesn't have the depth in banks, advertising, publishing, music, TV, film or fashion. The only competition for those startups'd be New York. Net-a-Porter would never work in Silicon Valley. The Baltic states, especially Tallinn, have benefitted from Skype; the Scandinavian countries are full of developer talent. They're also full of English speakers, and if you're looking to go global, that doesn't hurt. If you're doing hardware or biotech, the answer's Cambridge, though.

Geea 16y ago

As some of you have already said it, some cities have a better ecosystem, others have a low cost of living but no ecosystem and crazy bureaucracy, others have low taxes. The solution is an offshore: you start your company in a low-taxes European country (Cyprus, Bulgaria) or a tax haven, you live close to an ecosystem (near London, for instance) and you hire developers from Eastern Europe (low wages, highly skilled).

Ras_ 16y ago
There are places for everything: Åland Islands (Fi) - no VAT Jersey (UK) - no VAT on goods sold, as long as items cost less than £18 and are posted individually, no import taxes to mainland UK Estonia - no corporate profit tax (flat 21% tax on dividends)