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Everyone, and I do mean everyone, with a mental health issue understands the first problem with mental health: People try to laugh it off, or hide it out of fea

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, with a mental health issue understands the first problem with mental health: People try to laugh it off, or hide it out of fear that others will laugh it off. Since people literally end up dead at an early age because of this attitude, your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness, and that is a lot of people. Such is the risk of being flippant. Fortunately there's a -4 limit and you'll live. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? To first order, Zed's list speaks for itself: being in poor health tends to depress you, especially the part about bad sleep. The depression and the health effects feed back on each other in a nasty way. But I'd add that loneliness is a big factor. These days we have amazing tech like IRC and Twitter and HN, and it's easy to imagine that we can have rich social lives without ever seeing another person except through the medium of text. Well, your brain, designed and conditioned as it is for the presence of actual physical humans, may think differently. I spent eighteen months working as a solo consultant in my office, meeting clients only via email and the occasional phone call, and it eventually drove me bananas. My wife still laughs about the day I took half an hour off to go to the barber and then raved about the awesome social experience. Even if you work in an office the isolation can be frustrating, because as a programmer you routinely work on problems that nobody else understands or wants to understand - even your fellow programmers, who are trying to focus on problems of their own. To interact with others you need to really break your focus, but that causes you to slow down, so maybe you try not to do it, and before you know it everyone else has gone home and it is dark and you're wandering through an empty parking lot... Remember, solitary confinement is one of the worst tortures you can inflict on a human.

Confusion 16y ago
your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness This 'flippant' comment was made by someone with enough experience with mental illness to not warrant downvoting based on their own projection of me not having enough respect for the seriousness of mental illness. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? Yes, I really need an explanation of why mental health problems would be especially common among programmers and why Zed would need to include it in a book aimed at aspiring programmers. I don't think the risk of mental problems is even remotely close to the the risk of some of the physical problems mentioned, because contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive. You're making the same dubious generalization as Zed: turning your own experience into something that you suppose to be 'common'. I'm asking for evidence of that. Your personal experience with loneliness does not provide that. The question is what additional risks to your mental health becoming a programmer introduces, beyond the fact that mental health problems are already reason number one for disfunctioning, unhappiness, and even death in certain age categories. Should every writer of every introduction on any professional subject include a section on mental health problems, because everyone is at risk of them? I'd rather advocate people being taught the risks of certain working conditions in highschool.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive > I'm asking for evidence of that I can't speak for 'mechanical_fish' but I've seen plenty of evidence of that, including two very sad cases (very smart but socially mal-adapted people that ended up living more or less like hermits).
  - Confusion 16y ago
    But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? The problem may be the other way around: programming attracts people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Only someone physically near that cares can help and then we are still supposing that these people are unhappy. Mechanical_fish needs company and social interactions, which is pretty normal. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs it. You run the risk of imposing your moral standard about 'socializing' on others, that can, and want to, get by with little social interaction.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      > But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? I think the dialogue with the computer gave them what they never could get from having a dialogue with people, someone that could keep up with them and that understood them in a way that few people ever would be able to. > If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Physicists don't as a rule work from their houses with curtains in front of the window to block out the daylight and nothing but food ordered by phone. As a software guy you can easily get away with that, and with the virtual office trend we're even formalizing that whole concept. > Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? That's a really good question, and I haven't a clue about an answer for you. Would it have hurt? > Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? Maybe the computer is the escape for people that fall in to that category, but maybe there is more to it than just isolation. Personally I think isolation makes a bad thing worse. I've seen programmers work for companies that were absolutely gifted but they were kept as far behind the scenes as possible due to their lack of social skills and I'm not just talking about taking a bath or changing clothes. And according to their family they were doing ok as people until they discovered the computer, and then they somehow shut out the world. So the tendency must have been there already, but the machine amplified that to some extent. Again, probably nothing you could have read about that would have warned you. But I know of at least one person whose story I would love to read, if only he were around to write it, there might be a warning in there for some of us that really would make a difference. > Perhaps the problem is the other way around: programming attracts such people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. Yes, I believe that is true. > If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Not sure about that. As I wrote above, I have no evidence or idea of whether it would help, but since programming seems to attract such people the place to warn them would be in a place where those interested in their health would read about it, say a book about programmers and their health. BTW, I'm upset at the way you're being downvoted in this thread, I'd prefer those that downvote to articulate their point of view instead of this silly piling on mob voting. The point you made was articulate, maybe unpopular but it definitely added to the discussion because it brought some interesting stuff to light.
TimeForThis 16y ago
> My wife still laughs about the day I took half an hour off to go to the barber and then raved about the awesome social experience. I had the same experience working for a company where I was on my own and the people weren't friendly. I ended up loving the staff in the nearby Cafe Nero because they were friendly and asked me how I was and sometimes had a little chat. When I finally left that job, I left them a massive tip... I actually wanted to leave a gushing thank you card but at least I still retained some sense of perspective to know that that would have probably weirded them out. All day I was on messenger and forums and had music playing but having no friendly contact with humans for hours has quite an effect.
- mcantor 16y ago
  It wouldn't have weirded them out--it probably would have made their day. Why not err on the side of maybe delighting someone? Worse case scenario, it weirds them out and you never see them again anyway!
Confusion 16y ago
To interact with others you need to really break your focus, but that causes you to slow down, so maybe you try not to do it, and before you know it everyone else has gone home and it is dark and you're wandering through an empty parking lot... Supposing that programming is indeed more isolating than other professions, that programmers are personalities more prone to isolating themselves in the first place and that this leads to a significant amount of mental health problems. What could Zed write that, in similar vein to the remarks about various physical conditions, would prevent people from acquiring those problems? What could you have read and understood and believed enough to have stopped you from taking on a job during which you went 18 months without enough social contact? (Not trying to bait you, just honestly wondering what you think would help, because I feel I only solve/understand such things by experiencing them)
shoover 16y ago
I've been working from home for a year. I'm an introvert, but I think loneliness would've set in by now except for some fortunate balance in my setup. My wife and baby are in the house most of the time (not so much that they interrupt, but enough that I can hear noises when they're around), I meet friends for lunch at least once a week, and in the evenings and weekends I do other things besides code constantly. I thought I'd need to get out to cafes more for a change of pace, but so far I haven't needed to. Everyone's social needs are different as relates to mental health, but my recommendation is if you don't have family or roommates around making some noise and conversation, keep an eye on your how you're feeling and set limits on how much of the week you toil in isolation. It can also be bad for your health if remote work relationships are difficult, so you have to have a certain amount of company support for what you're doing as well.

Confusion 16y ago

your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness This 'flippant' comment was made by someone with enough experience with mental illness to not warrant downvoting based on their own projection of me not having enough respect for the seriousness of mental illness. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? Yes, I really need an explanation of why mental health problems would be especially common among programmers and why Zed would need to include it in a book aimed at aspiring programmers. I don't think the risk of mental problems is even remotely close to the the risk of some of the physical problems mentioned, because contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive. You're making the same dubious generalization as Zed: turning your own experience into something that you suppose to be 'common'. I'm asking for evidence of that. Your personal experience with loneliness does not provide that. The question is what additional risks to your mental health becoming a programmer introduces, beyond the fact that mental health problems are already reason number one for disfunctioning, unhappiness, and even death in certain age categories. Should every writer of every introduction on any professional subject include a section on mental health problems, because everyone is at risk of them? I'd rather advocate people being taught the risks of certain working conditions in highschool.

jacquesm 16y ago
> contrary to your anecdote, every programmer I've met so far did not work alone for extended periods and was not reclusive > I'm asking for evidence of that I can't speak for 'mechanical_fish' but I've seen plenty of evidence of that, including two very sad cases (very smart but socially mal-adapted people that ended up living more or less like hermits).
- Confusion 16y ago
  But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? The problem may be the other way around: programming attracts people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Only someone physically near that cares can help and then we are still supposing that these people are unhappy. Mechanical_fish needs company and social interactions, which is pretty normal. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs it. You run the risk of imposing your moral standard about 'socializing' on others, that can, and want to, get by with little social interaction.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    > But was that because they were programmers or because their mind was already wired that way? I think the dialogue with the computer gave them what they never could get from having a dialogue with people, someone that could keep up with them and that understood them in a way that few people ever would be able to. > If they had become physicists, would they not have ended up living more or less like hermits? Physicists don't as a rule work from their houses with curtains in front of the window to block out the daylight and nothing but food ordered by phone. As a software guy you can easily get away with that, and with the virtual office trend we're even formalizing that whole concept. > Lets suppose that they are self-taught programmers: would a section on mental health in the introductory works they read, warning them against the dangers of loneliness and seclusion, have helped? That's a really good question, and I haven't a clue about an answer for you. Would it have hurt? > Would they have heeded the warnings and would they have been able to socialize, or were they already the kind of people that didn't socialize anyway? Maybe the computer is the escape for people that fall in to that category, but maybe there is more to it than just isolation. Personally I think isolation makes a bad thing worse. I've seen programmers work for companies that were absolutely gifted but they were kept as far behind the scenes as possible due to their lack of social skills and I'm not just talking about taking a bath or changing clothes. And according to their family they were doing ok as people until they discovered the computer, and then they somehow shut out the world. So the tendency must have been there already, but the machine amplified that to some extent. Again, probably nothing you could have read about that would have warned you. But I know of at least one person whose story I would love to read, if only he were around to write it, there might be a warning in there for some of us that really would make a difference. > Perhaps the problem is the other way around: programming attracts such people, because it's a profession where you can be working alone. Yes, I believe that is true. > If that is part of the attraction, no amount of offtopic warnings are going to help. Not sure about that. As I wrote above, I have no evidence or idea of whether it would help, but since programming seems to attract such people the place to warn them would be in a place where those interested in their health would read about it, say a book about programmers and their health. BTW, I'm upset at the way you're being downvoted in this thread, I'd prefer those that downvote to articulate their point of view instead of this silly piling on mob voting. The point you made was articulate, maybe unpopular but it definitely added to the discussion because it brought some interesting stuff to light.

TimeForThis 16y ago

> My wife still laughs about the day I took half an hour off to go to the barber and then raved about the awesome social experience. I had the same experience working for a company where I was on my own and the people weren't friendly. I ended up loving the staff in the nearby Cafe Nero because they were friendly and asked me how I was and sometimes had a little chat. When I finally left that job, I left them a massive tip... I actually wanted to leave a gushing thank you card but at least I still retained some sense of perspective to know that that would have probably weirded them out. All day I was on messenger and forums and had music playing but having no friendly contact with humans for hours has quite an effect.

mcantor 16y ago
It wouldn't have weirded them out--it probably would have made their day. Why not err on the side of maybe delighting someone? Worse case scenario, it weirds them out and you never see them again anyway!

Confusion 16y ago

To interact with others you need to really break your focus, but that causes you to slow down, so maybe you try not to do it, and before you know it everyone else has gone home and it is dark and you're wandering through an empty parking lot... Supposing that programming is indeed more isolating than other professions, that programmers are personalities more prone to isolating themselves in the first place and that this leads to a significant amount of mental health problems. What could Zed write that, in similar vein to the remarks about various physical conditions, would prevent people from acquiring those problems? What could you have read and understood and believed enough to have stopped you from taking on a job during which you went 18 months without enough social contact? (Not trying to bait you, just honestly wondering what you think would help, because I feel I only solve/understand such things by experiencing them)

shoover 16y ago

I've been working from home for a year. I'm an introvert, but I think loneliness would've set in by now except for some fortunate balance in my setup. My wife and baby are in the house most of the time (not so much that they interrupt, but enough that I can hear noises when they're around), I meet friends for lunch at least once a week, and in the evenings and weekends I do other things besides code constantly. I thought I'd need to get out to cafes more for a change of pace, but so far I haven't needed to. Everyone's social needs are different as relates to mental health, but my recommendation is if you don't have family or roommates around making some noise and conversation, keep an eye on your how you're feeling and set limits on how much of the week you toil in isolation. It can also be bad for your health if remote work relationships are difficult, so you have to have a certain amount of company support for what you're doing as well.