4 ms·

I know friends that work in online gambling, they say they are more ashamed of people who work in banking, hft, defense (offense?) contractors, Facebook or Goog

I know friends that work in online gambling, they say they are more ashamed of people who work in banking, hft, defense (offense?) contractors, Facebook or Google. Why? Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place.

gk1 9y ago
A code of conduct is meaningless if the profession does not rely on certifications. For example, lawyers can be disbarred and doctors can lose their medical license... What are you going to do to an engineer who acts unethically? > Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. Your friends are kidding themselves. What can be more tangible than taking money from people? I am not taking sides on the "is allowing gambling unethical" question, just saying that the "tangible effects" argument is weak.
runeb 9y ago
Sounds like whataboutism. Pointing at the dirty neighbors does not clean your own house.
- pikiejoe 9y ago
  So you are confirming the neighbour does indeed have a dirty house too?
  - runeb 9y ago
    No, I am pointing out it doesn’t matter.
jetti 9y ago
>We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place Too bad that it is a very subjective idea. What your friends who work in online gambling think has a negative effect on society (and thus could be said to make the world a worse place) does not seem that way to me. I see HFT as market makers and bankers as something necessary to keep capital flowing. Of course, there are still industries that I feel cross the line when it comes to ethics as well, but I'm sure there are many who disagree with my opinion as well.
ken 9y ago
http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics
davidcuddeback 9y ago
> We need an engineering code of conduct That exists [1]. The problem is, as gk1 points out, it doesn't have much teeth without licensure. [1]: https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics
peckrob 9y ago
> We need an engineering code of conduct. Most engineering disciplines have this, and they take it very, very seriously. That's part of being a PE. The problem is enforcing breaches of the code. In engineering disciplines that require licenses from the relevant government or professional bodies, breaching the ethical codes can result in you, or whoever signed for your work, losing their license and thus being unable to work (or at the very least they'd have to work under another engineer). In addition to facing potential legal and financial consequences for their actions. But we don't have mandatory licensing in software and I honestly struggle with how we would even implement that. In a traditional engineering discipline such as civil engineering, teams of engineers work on a project that requires millions of dollars to construct, with many reviews by other engineers and overseen by more people. But all it takes to make software is a computer. The barrier to entry is so much lower that, if you're a bad actor, it's not that difficult to find someone who will be willing to do your dirty work for money. Even in places that license software engineers (I don't think a PE exam existed for software until 2012, but I may be mistaken) there's really no incentive to get one because companies by and large don't care (there are a few that might, though, like aviation or medical). The best idea I've been able to come up with is a combination of education on ethical issues and a voluntary code of ethics that we get as many software engineers, developers, and companies to sign onto. It doesn't solve the problem, but it's at least an incremental improvement over the Wild West that we currently have.
pmarreck 9y ago
> Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. Let's see your evidence for this. Otherwise, bullshit. > We need an engineering code of conduct No. What we need is a no-bullshit code of conduct- All actions should be based on evidence, instead of belief. Engineering included. That would solve this, and many many many other problems occurring now.

gk1 9y ago

A code of conduct is meaningless if the profession does not rely on certifications. For example, lawyers can be disbarred and doctors can lose their medical license... What are you going to do to an engineer who acts unethically? > Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. Your friends are kidding themselves. What can be more tangible than taking money from people? I am not taking sides on the "is allowing gambling unethical" question, just saying that the "tangible effects" argument is weak.

runeb 9y ago

Sounds like whataboutism. Pointing at the dirty neighbors does not clean your own house.

pikiejoe 9y ago
So you are confirming the neighbour does indeed have a dirty house too?
- runeb 9y ago
  No, I am pointing out it doesn’t matter.

jetti 9y ago

>We need an engineering code of conduct - too many tech folk happy to take a dollar in return for building stuff that makes the world a worse place Too bad that it is a very subjective idea. What your friends who work in online gambling think has a negative effect on society (and thus could be said to make the world a worse place) does not seem that way to me. I see HFT as market makers and bankers as something necessary to keep capital flowing. Of course, there are still industries that I feel cross the line when it comes to ethics as well, but I'm sure there are many who disagree with my opinion as well.

ken 9y ago

http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics http://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics

davidcuddeback 9y ago

> We need an engineering code of conduct That exists [1]. The problem is, as gk1 points out, it doesn't have much teeth without licensure. [1]: https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics https://www.computer.org/web/education/code-of-ethics

peckrob 9y ago

> We need an engineering code of conduct. Most engineering disciplines have this, and they take it very, very seriously. That's part of being a PE. The problem is enforcing breaches of the code. In engineering disciplines that require licenses from the relevant government or professional bodies, breaching the ethical codes can result in you, or whoever signed for your work, losing their license and thus being unable to work (or at the very least they'd have to work under another engineer). In addition to facing potential legal and financial consequences for their actions. But we don't have mandatory licensing in software and I honestly struggle with how we would even implement that. In a traditional engineering discipline such as civil engineering, teams of engineers work on a project that requires millions of dollars to construct, with many reviews by other engineers and overseen by more people. But all it takes to make software is a computer. The barrier to entry is so much lower that, if you're a bad actor, it's not that difficult to find someone who will be willing to do your dirty work for money. Even in places that license software engineers (I don't think a PE exam existed for software until 2012, but I may be mistaken) there's really no incentive to get one because companies by and large don't care (there are a few that might, though, like aviation or medical). The best idea I've been able to come up with is a combination of education on ethical issues and a voluntary code of ethics that we get as many software engineers, developers, and companies to sign onto. It doesn't solve the problem, but it's at least an incremental improvement over the Wild West that we currently have.

pmarreck 9y ago

> Because all the above have tangible negative effects on society. Let's see your evidence for this. Otherwise, bullshit. > We need an engineering code of conduct No. What we need is a no-bullshit code of conduct- All actions should be based on evidence, instead of belief. Engineering included. That would solve this, and many many many other problems occurring now.