7 ms·

Verifying the safety of infant formula using the blockchain

33 points by teknologist 9y ago

cdancette 9y ago
The pharmaceutical companies are basically using blockchain as a data store. The only benefit of blockchain here is availability and security (hacking is more difficult), but they could use exactly the same mechanism and use a traditional database. People still need the technology in there phone to scan the product, and we need to ensure that those proofs can't be tampered directly on the products. That also seems hard.
Dowwie 9y ago
In 2009, China had a very serious problem dealing with tainted milk, leading to infants dying and getting sick. People had sold more than 900 tonnes of tainted milk. It eventually executed two involved with the production process: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes... The blockchain solution presented here wouldn't have verified safety in that case, although the author did mention the case which makes the article misleading. Melamine was added to the formula to fool a protein test. The chemical was added by trusted members of the supply chain. Since the members were trusted, they would pass the authenticity test of the blockchain.
- deevolution 9y ago
  Yeah, unfortunately you cant do a checksum on physical ingredients.
  - myth_drannon 9y ago
    Today we can't.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      Actually I think we could. It just hasn't been implemented. (not to say it's practical).
  - diggan 9y ago
    Actually, from the article, it mentions this: > Leanne Kemp, an Australian who in 2015 founded a company called Everledger, has now encrypted the distinguishing features of 1.8 million diamonds and their provenance on a blockchain. > More than 40 features are logged to create a fingerprint for each diamond, logging it from mine to ring. So it seems, in the case of diamonds, they are unique enough to create a fingerprint. I'm no expert on diamonds, so that might not really work in reality.
    - Isomatik 9y ago
      I can't find very much information on Everledger's features process, just on the blockchain aspect, which doesn't inspire confidence. It's not enough for them to create 40 features you can fingerprint a diamond by, they have to be 40 features that are independently and consistently verifiable. If I have to send my diamond to Everledger to verify it, I'm effectively just trusting them. Representing a physical object as a cryptographic hash for security doesn't work if the consumer can't independently verify the hash.
  - cal5k 9y ago
    Surely you wouldn't hash a car?
- aisofteng 9y ago
  Executed? Can't say I have a problem with that.
skywhopper 9y ago
The author and editor of this article apparently made no attempt to comprehend what a blockchain is or what it can do, and there's no detail in the article that tells me how using a blockchain solves the authenticity problems described. Paperwork can be bought for a bribe? Why couldn't a blockchain record?
- netsharc 9y ago
  A theoretical solution is a gadget that can read the chemical composition of a powder placed in front of its sensor, and digitally sign it... obviously there's a MITM attack there, if I can go between the sensor and the CPU, I can tell the CPU "the sensors read these values..."
  - deevolution 9y ago
    Consumers would need the ability to easily verify that the chemical composition of the product they purchased matches the manufacturers claim.
mark_l_watson 9y ago
The article gets some technical details wrong but does point the way of what I think are blockchains big use cases. I took the edX blockchain for business class that covers these use cases and has some hands on exercises - not much programming, but experimenting with Hyperledge projects. I am interested in a different use case http://hyperledgerai.com http://hyperledgerai.com but I have not made much progress yet.
sho 9y ago
I keep on hearing about how blockchain is the future of everything but am yet to hear even a single use case which could not have been implemented in a traditional DB. I suppose blockchain has some advantages in its zero-trust distributed nature but that's just implementation. In this case, the previous problem wasn't technological, it was a bad actor subverting the system - and they would be able to subvert this system in the exact same way. What, is the blockchain going to reach up out of the ether and hold the guy back from pouring melamine into the mixing vat, then saying he didn't? I don't know how journalists fall for this nonsense. You don't even need to be technically literate to see the problem. I didn't even have to read the article to know what the fatal flaw was going to be. And this is the BBC! It's infuriating.
- diggan 9y ago
  Now I'm not arguing against you that this seems a bit weird and not gonna solve the problem in itself, but humor me here. As I understand it from the article, the blockchain is suppose to prevent people from wanting to tamper with the product, since every logistical-step from production to delivery is stamped and you can easily trace where the product is coming from. So once you discover that a product has been tampered with, you'll follow the log and investigate everyone along the way, in the end you'll find who is messing with it. Not exactly sure why they would need a blockchain for this, but I guess it's because no one in the chain trust each other. But, all of what I wrote might be wrong, I might misunderstand how it works or why it would work.
  - sho 9y ago
    I'm not disputing the value of a chain of custody. I'm saying you can do the exact same thing without blockchain - in fact if you've ever tracked a parcel online, you've participated in one. The only innovation here seems to be implementing a per-product, publicly queryable chain of custody utilising individual RFID tags. Well that actually sounds like a great idea, but it has nothing to do with blockchain! In fact if anything it's the opposite of it, because you need explicitly trusted parties at every step, which would have to be authorised by a central system, which just completes the circle of stupidity. I'd bet you anything that that final check by the lady in the supermarket is in reality - wait for it - a JSON API request.
cheeze 9y ago
What actually makes this a blockchain? That it uses a Merkle Tree? Is a CT log a blockchain?
- cdancette 9y ago
  A blockchain is a just a linear merkle tree.
  - mbrock 9y ago
    Put differently, it's like a branching DAG with economic incentives to always treat the longest path as "master." Quite a lot like a Git repository: you usually want to follow the branch with the most cumulative work on it.
    - cdancette 9y ago
      It's more of a tree than a DAG : you'll never have merging in a blockchain. A tree where the longest path is considered the real branch.
cdancette 9y ago
I think a good idea would be for the brands to "sign" each product they're selling, so that you could verify the signature in a very simple way (scanning a qr code? ). I think the blockchain is not really necessary here, and it solves a problem that's not very likely to happen (someone hacking the pharmaceutical's database to remove evidence of tampering).
mcguire 9y ago
I'm afraid I don't get any of this. "A small wire in the formula label wraps around the container, explains Alexander Busarov, chief executive of blockchain startup WaLiMai. "You cannot open the can of baby food without breaking the label," he says. "The wire acts as an antenna for a signal from an RFID chip, which a smartphone can read. The chip, like some bank cards, generates a new code each time it is scanned. Authenticating takes about two seconds, says Mr Busarov, then you get the result, the logistics details, a picture of the product and where it was labelled." They're using magic encryption technology and remote servers to ensure that someone hasn't opened the can and replaced the contents? I kinda see the diamond example, although I'm not sure what the block chain adds over a simple database. But the problems with the other products invoice a worker dumpling a bag of melamine powder into the mixer with the other ingredients and then lying about it. How does this, or any other, technology stop that?

33 points by teknologist 9y ago

The pharmaceutical companies are basically using blockchain as a data store. The only benefit of blockchain here is availability and security (hacking is more difficult), but they could use exactly the same mechanism and use a traditional database. People still need the technology in there phone to scan the product, and we need to ensure that those proofs can't be tampered directly on the products. That also seems hard.

Dowwie 9y ago

In 2009, China had a very serious problem dealing with tainted milk, leading to infants dying and getting sick. People had sold more than 900 tonnes of tainted milk. It eventually executed two involved with the production process: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes... The blockchain solution presented here wouldn't have verified safety in that case, although the author did mention the case which makes the article misleading. Melamine was added to the formula to fool a protein test. The chemical was added by trusted members of the supply chain. Since the members were trusted, they would pass the authenticity test of the blockchain.

deevolution 9y ago
Yeah, unfortunately you cant do a checksum on physical ingredients.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  Today we can't.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
    Actually I think we could. It just hasn't been implemented. (not to say it's practical).
- diggan 9y ago
  Actually, from the article, it mentions this: > Leanne Kemp, an Australian who in 2015 founded a company called Everledger, has now encrypted the distinguishing features of 1.8 million diamonds and their provenance on a blockchain. > More than 40 features are logged to create a fingerprint for each diamond, logging it from mine to ring. So it seems, in the case of diamonds, they are unique enough to create a fingerprint. I'm no expert on diamonds, so that might not really work in reality.
  - Isomatik 9y ago
    I can't find very much information on Everledger's features process, just on the blockchain aspect, which doesn't inspire confidence. It's not enough for them to create 40 features you can fingerprint a diamond by, they have to be 40 features that are independently and consistently verifiable. If I have to send my diamond to Everledger to verify it, I'm effectively just trusting them. Representing a physical object as a cryptographic hash for security doesn't work if the consumer can't independently verify the hash.
- cal5k 9y ago
  Surely you wouldn't hash a car?
aisofteng 9y ago
Executed? Can't say I have a problem with that.

skywhopper 9y ago

The author and editor of this article apparently made no attempt to comprehend what a blockchain is or what it can do, and there's no detail in the article that tells me how using a blockchain solves the authenticity problems described. Paperwork can be bought for a bribe? Why couldn't a blockchain record?

netsharc 9y ago
A theoretical solution is a gadget that can read the chemical composition of a powder placed in front of its sensor, and digitally sign it... obviously there's a MITM attack there, if I can go between the sensor and the CPU, I can tell the CPU "the sensors read these values..."
- deevolution 9y ago
  Consumers would need the ability to easily verify that the chemical composition of the product they purchased matches the manufacturers claim.

mark_l_watson 9y ago

The article gets some technical details wrong but does point the way of what I think are blockchains big use cases. I took the edX blockchain for business class that covers these use cases and has some hands on exercises - not much programming, but experimenting with Hyperledge projects. I am interested in a different use case http://hyperledgerai.com http://hyperledgerai.com but I have not made much progress yet.

sho 9y ago

I keep on hearing about how blockchain is the future of everything but am yet to hear even a single use case which could not have been implemented in a traditional DB. I suppose blockchain has some advantages in its zero-trust distributed nature but that's just implementation. In this case, the previous problem wasn't technological, it was a bad actor subverting the system - and they would be able to subvert this system in the exact same way. What, is the blockchain going to reach up out of the ether and hold the guy back from pouring melamine into the mixing vat, then saying he didn't? I don't know how journalists fall for this nonsense. You don't even need to be technically literate to see the problem. I didn't even have to read the article to know what the fatal flaw was going to be. And this is the BBC! It's infuriating.

diggan 9y ago
Now I'm not arguing against you that this seems a bit weird and not gonna solve the problem in itself, but humor me here. As I understand it from the article, the blockchain is suppose to prevent people from wanting to tamper with the product, since every logistical-step from production to delivery is stamped and you can easily trace where the product is coming from. So once you discover that a product has been tampered with, you'll follow the log and investigate everyone along the way, in the end you'll find who is messing with it. Not exactly sure why they would need a blockchain for this, but I guess it's because no one in the chain trust each other. But, all of what I wrote might be wrong, I might misunderstand how it works or why it would work.
- sho 9y ago
  I'm not disputing the value of a chain of custody. I'm saying you can do the exact same thing without blockchain - in fact if you've ever tracked a parcel online, you've participated in one. The only innovation here seems to be implementing a per-product, publicly queryable chain of custody utilising individual RFID tags. Well that actually sounds like a great idea, but it has nothing to do with blockchain! In fact if anything it's the opposite of it, because you need explicitly trusted parties at every step, which would have to be authorised by a central system, which just completes the circle of stupidity. I'd bet you anything that that final check by the lady in the supermarket is in reality - wait for it - a JSON API request.

cheeze 9y ago

What actually makes this a blockchain? That it uses a Merkle Tree? Is a CT log a blockchain?

cdancette 9y ago
A blockchain is a just a linear merkle tree.
- mbrock 9y ago
  Put differently, it's like a branching DAG with economic incentives to always treat the longest path as "master." Quite a lot like a Git repository: you usually want to follow the branch with the most cumulative work on it.
  - cdancette 9y ago
    It's more of a tree than a DAG : you'll never have merging in a blockchain. A tree where the longest path is considered the real branch.

cdancette 9y ago

I think a good idea would be for the brands to "sign" each product they're selling, so that you could verify the signature in a very simple way (scanning a qr code? ). I think the blockchain is not really necessary here, and it solves a problem that's not very likely to happen (someone hacking the pharmaceutical's database to remove evidence of tampering).

mcguire 9y ago

I'm afraid I don't get any of this. "A small wire in the formula label wraps around the container, explains Alexander Busarov, chief executive of blockchain startup WaLiMai. "You cannot open the can of baby food without breaking the label," he says. "The wire acts as an antenna for a signal from an RFID chip, which a smartphone can read. The chip, like some bank cards, generates a new code each time it is scanned. Authenticating takes about two seconds, says Mr Busarov, then you get the result, the logistics details, a picture of the product and where it was labelled." They're using magic encryption technology and remote servers to ensure that someone hasn't opened the can and replaced the contents? I kinda see the diamond example, although I'm not sure what the block chain adds over a simple database. But the problems with the other products invoice a worker dumpling a bag of melamine powder into the mixer with the other ingredients and then lying about it. How does this, or any other, technology stop that?