8 ms·

The SV BigCorps have really poisoned the well out there. It's depressing that the majority of good programmers in the bay area are obsessed with the compensatio

The SV BigCorps have really poisoned the well out there. It's depressing that the majority of good programmers in the bay area are obsessed with the compensation package. Not saying it's the wrong decision, but like you said, it sucks the air out of everything else. I'd want to blow my fucking brains out if I had the typical Google SDE/SRE's job and the most interesting challenges were whether it was worth it to take the Google Bus to work or how to deftly navigate the D'Amore spiderweb, but that's life if you want to work with good people out there. I've interviewed with "top flight" YC alum etc. startups in the area and came away hugely unimpressed. Maybe it was just luck of the draw, but as a startup guy, I have no reason at all to move out that way. Over time stuff like this will result in bland, money-driven talent with good pedigrees and hurt innovation, to echo your point again.

stevenj 9y ago
>It's depressing that the majority of good programmers in the bay area are obsessed with the compensation package. I think many people across a lot of industries are primarily concerned with their compensation packages when evaluating jobs.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  What a dull truism. I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, I make silly good money for where I live. The fact that I could be making 400k+ total comp in Google Mountain View hell or Facebook Palo Alto hell does nothing for me.
  - stevenj 9y ago
    I have a hard time believing that the majority of people making 400k+ at either Google or Facebook would consider their work/life situation a type of hell. I understand why some people don't want to work for those companies or in those areas, or aren't motivated by money. But I think many others do, and the ones that are living it now are doing so by choice and for their own reasons.
    - bob_theslob646 9y ago
      Well to give you and idea on how expensive it is to live, let's talk taxes. Let's say you are married and make 400k a year and live in San Matteo , CA. California tax rate is 9.3% and federal is 33%. So before living you owe have (400,000x(1-(.093+.33))=230,800. Now let's say you want to house your family. You decide to buy a house. Well you only have $230,000 so you can't put 20% down on a home with an average price of a million won in San Mateo, so you put 10% down on this home ( random home in San Mateo.)[https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1715-Borden-St-San-Mateo-CA-94403/15531518_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1715-Borden-St-San-Mateo-... ] It's a 3 bed 2 bath home with 1400 square feet.I'm also assuming you have two kids.(each get their own room) So now we're at 230800 - $110,000 = 120,800 Now you have to pay the yearly mortgage which is 5606 x 12 =67272 120800-67272= 53,028 left over to live in. Well don't you need a car to go to work? What about a car for the wife? Car insurance? You are looking at 1200-1500 a month, if you buy a newer car and have great credit with insurance. (1300x12) - (53028)= 37,028 You see how quickly it goes. So the thing is I'm not sure if you can put a down-payment on a house less than 20%. That will take off on the mortgage (save you an additional 12-15k) ( I also assumed an interest rate of 4.37% for the 30-year fixed and I believe if you put more down you get a better interest rate)
      - azernik 9y ago
        Who pays a down payment out of a single year's savings?
        crispyambulance 9y ago
        Not many people. I expect that the more normal situation is years of apartment living, saving up, and then paying the down payment as a dual-income couple possibly with assistance from parents.
        bob_theslob646 9y ago
        I assumed, that a person who would be moving there and would be buying a home and or have no savings... I know hard for some people to imagine, but alot of people have no savings , leave paycheck to paycheck
  - amorphid 9y ago
    I'd stop going to work if they stopped paying me. Every unit of comp I am paid (and don't spend) now is 1+ units of comp I don't need to earn later. All other things being equal, getting paid more is frikkin' awesome. If you can live a life you'd want and make a lot, too, I highly recommend it.
- tehlike 9y ago
  thesmallestcat: except, you can retire early, and move to cheaper place.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jrs95 9y ago
  It's worse in the midwest. 95% of the available tech jobs are boring as hell, so there's not much left to look for in them except money.
ggg9990 9y ago
I love my BigCo comp package, but to tell you the truth, I would not go to a startup for a 50% raise, because the best part of working for the BigCo is that my code ships to tens of millions of people, and I see it on the service dashboard. You can't get that anywhere else. Hundreds of millions of people a month run my code. That is very cool.
QML 9y ago
How would a Bay Area tech company then compete with the like of Google of Facebook for top-talent then? It would be nearly impossible for most companies to match the compensation of the Big 4. The influx and concentration of wealth by those companies are essentially crowding out smaller companies and driving up local housing prices. Think about the billions of dollars that flow from around the world, and disperses itself in the small radius that is SV and SF. What's the solution then? Have smaller companies move to the Midwest? Or radically cap salaries at 100k?
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  Right, that's the inner question of my comment, and the answer is, they can't. Hence the "poisoned well" analogy. Unless you're the founder and want access to Googler/FBer/etc. dollars, or you have dreams of transitioning to a BigCorp role, there's not a compelling reason to work at a bay area startup (well, unless you really like SF, a totally valid reason -- I love SF, but the tradeoff is a bit fierce right now).
sidlls 9y ago
I look at differently: it sucks that so many are willing to work for so little, or even nothing, that it sucks the air out of negotiating better compensation packages. Compensation is how we provide for our families in this world. It's important. At least as important as the quality of schools and culture in an area, for example: two areas that lily-white flyovers are worse at. Note: I lived in the Midwest many years. The occasional urban area that defies the above is an exception, not the rule. Note: I save the equivalent of a down payment on a nice home in the Midwest every year. Compensation is nice. In 5 years even if I have no growth I'll be able to move somewhere in the Midwest and buy a huge house even if my income halves. That security and peace of mind isn't available to folks happy to get paid less out of spite for the Valley.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  snipped
  - sidlls 9y ago
    I bet you think you aren't an outlier.
    - thesmallestcat 9y ago
      Good point! I think that the decision skews away from the bay area (for startup work) if you're particularly skilled. A mediocre developer can make a load of money, relatively speaking, in the bay area, and might get screwed in the midwest. As a big fish in a small pond, and as a force multiplier, I have more negotiating power here.
      - sidlls 9y ago
        A "Big Fish" in the Bay Area is doing that much better, though. That's the whole point.

stevenj 9y ago

>It's depressing that the majority of good programmers in the bay area are obsessed with the compensation package. I think many people across a lot of industries are primarily concerned with their compensation packages when evaluating jobs.

thesmallestcat 9y ago
What a dull truism. I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, I make silly good money for where I live. The fact that I could be making 400k+ total comp in Google Mountain View hell or Facebook Palo Alto hell does nothing for me.
- stevenj 9y ago
  I have a hard time believing that the majority of people making 400k+ at either Google or Facebook would consider their work/life situation a type of hell. I understand why some people don't want to work for those companies or in those areas, or aren't motivated by money. But I think many others do, and the ones that are living it now are doing so by choice and for their own reasons.
  - bob_theslob646 9y ago
    Well to give you and idea on how expensive it is to live, let's talk taxes. Let's say you are married and make 400k a year and live in San Matteo , CA. California tax rate is 9.3% and federal is 33%. So before living you owe have (400,000x(1-(.093+.33))=230,800. Now let's say you want to house your family. You decide to buy a house. Well you only have $230,000 so you can't put 20% down on a home with an average price of a million won in San Mateo, so you put 10% down on this home ( random home in San Mateo.)[https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1715-Borden-St-San-Mateo-CA-94403/15531518_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1715-Borden-St-San-Mateo-... ] It's a 3 bed 2 bath home with 1400 square feet.I'm also assuming you have two kids.(each get their own room) So now we're at 230800 - $110,000 = 120,800 Now you have to pay the yearly mortgage which is 5606 x 12 =67272 120800-67272= 53,028 left over to live in. Well don't you need a car to go to work? What about a car for the wife? Car insurance? You are looking at 1200-1500 a month, if you buy a newer car and have great credit with insurance. (1300x12) - (53028)= 37,028 You see how quickly it goes. So the thing is I'm not sure if you can put a down-payment on a house less than 20%. That will take off on the mortgage (save you an additional 12-15k) ( I also assumed an interest rate of 4.37% for the 30-year fixed and I believe if you put more down you get a better interest rate)
    - azernik 9y ago
      Who pays a down payment out of a single year's savings?
      - crispyambulance 9y ago
        Not many people. I expect that the more normal situation is years of apartment living, saving up, and then paying the down payment as a dual-income couple possibly with assistance from parents.
      - bob_theslob646 9y ago
        I assumed, that a person who would be moving there and would be buying a home and or have no savings... I know hard for some people to imagine, but alot of people have no savings , leave paycheck to paycheck
- amorphid 9y ago
  I'd stop going to work if they stopped paying me. Every unit of comp I am paid (and don't spend) now is 1+ units of comp I don't need to earn later. All other things being equal, getting paid more is frikkin' awesome. If you can live a life you'd want and make a lot, too, I highly recommend it.
tehlike 9y ago
thesmallestcat: except, you can retire early, and move to cheaper place.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jrs95 9y ago
It's worse in the midwest. 95% of the available tech jobs are boring as hell, so there's not much left to look for in them except money.

ggg9990 9y ago

I love my BigCo comp package, but to tell you the truth, I would not go to a startup for a 50% raise, because the best part of working for the BigCo is that my code ships to tens of millions of people, and I see it on the service dashboard. You can't get that anywhere else. Hundreds of millions of people a month run my code. That is very cool.

QML 9y ago

How would a Bay Area tech company then compete with the like of Google of Facebook for top-talent then? It would be nearly impossible for most companies to match the compensation of the Big 4. The influx and concentration of wealth by those companies are essentially crowding out smaller companies and driving up local housing prices. Think about the billions of dollars that flow from around the world, and disperses itself in the small radius that is SV and SF. What's the solution then? Have smaller companies move to the Midwest? Or radically cap salaries at 100k?

thesmallestcat 9y ago
Right, that's the inner question of my comment, and the answer is, they can't. Hence the "poisoned well" analogy. Unless you're the founder and want access to Googler/FBer/etc. dollars, or you have dreams of transitioning to a BigCorp role, there's not a compelling reason to work at a bay area startup (well, unless you really like SF, a totally valid reason -- I love SF, but the tradeoff is a bit fierce right now).

sidlls 9y ago

I look at differently: it sucks that so many are willing to work for so little, or even nothing, that it sucks the air out of negotiating better compensation packages. Compensation is how we provide for our families in this world. It's important. At least as important as the quality of schools and culture in an area, for example: two areas that lily-white flyovers are worse at. Note: I lived in the Midwest many years. The occasional urban area that defies the above is an exception, not the rule. Note: I save the equivalent of a down payment on a nice home in the Midwest every year. Compensation is nice. In 5 years even if I have no growth I'll be able to move somewhere in the Midwest and buy a huge house even if my income halves. That security and peace of mind isn't available to folks happy to get paid less out of spite for the Valley.

thesmallestcat 9y ago
snipped
- sidlls 9y ago
  I bet you think you aren't an outlier.
  - thesmallestcat 9y ago
    Good point! I think that the decision skews away from the bay area (for startup work) if you're particularly skilled. A mediocre developer can make a load of money, relatively speaking, in the bay area, and might get screwed in the midwest. As a big fish in a small pond, and as a force multiplier, I have more negotiating power here.
    - sidlls 9y ago
      A "Big Fish" in the Bay Area is doing that much better, though. That's the whole point.