46 ms·

> What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? They earned the respect of many people, who are used to continually seeing corporati

by jeswin 9y ago

> What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? They earned the respect of many people, who are used to continually seeing corporations sell out their values for profits. Getting out of potentially the biggest market in the world because of incompatible values = courage. As opposed to removing a headphone jack from a phone.

nikster 9y ago
You could also say they have enabled the rise of Baidu and with it a Google clone that is completely under the control of the Chinese government. I do respect Google for pulling out - this was actually the last time Google actually really tried to "don't be evil". Since then, they've thrown that overboard. But that one time, they did it. The problem is that the outcome was worse than remaining there. That was a lack of wisdom on Google's part. Apple could pull out, lose Billions of dollars and a hundred million users, Chinese wouldn't be able to get their hands on iPhones, and Samsung, Meizu, Huawei, and so on would be having a field day selling their government-approved devices, which, in terms of privacy, are infinitely worse than iPhones. Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like end to end encryption in iMessage and so on.
- jakecopp 9y ago
  I'm not sure about that that argument - in the same way you could argue below minimum wage work is okay because unemployment (or the alternative) is worse.
- bad_user 9y ago
  You're presenting a false dichotomy. Google would have lost to Baidu regardless and don't think for a second this wasn't factored in their decision. The Chinese are known for degrading the online experience of western services in preference for local alternatives. This coupled with the fact that Baidu really is better for the Chinese market, just how Yandex has been better for the Russian market. > Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like end to end encryption in iMessage and so on. The end to end encryption in iMessage is shit because Apple is managing the encryption keys and if your adversary is the Chinese government you'll get fucked given Apple's newfound willingness to bend over.
  - cromwellian 9y ago
    Have you ever used Baidu? It's worse than Google even when searching for Chinese. Baidu did a few things well: it was good for finding pirated content and porn, but for actual research, it's horrible.
    - Infinitesimus 9y ago
      I don't think OP was saying Google would lose to Baidu because of quality, but because the Chinese government has deep fingers in Baidu there's a very good chance they will cripple Google's services in favor of Baidu's.
Cookingboy 9y ago
The question was what did it do for the Chinese people. The answer is not that much really. Google was also doing terribly business wise in China, its revenue was a small and it was losing the search war against local giants like Baidu anyway. It wasn't much of a courageous move but more so of a smooth PR move.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  No, it did a lot to Chinese. By exiting China, Chinese companies got the chance to actual grow and develop its talent pool. almost 10 years on, now 4 of the top 10 internet companies in the world are Chinese companies providing huge number of high paying highly skilled jobs to Chinese. feel free to compare what Europe and Japan managed to get in the last decade in terms of Internet based economy.
4684499 9y ago
I don't understand the argument. If Google's objective was to earn respect from many people, then why didn't they quit US or other Five Eyes countries after Snowden? They changed their motto from do no evil to do the right thing. They quash ideas they don't like[1]. They collect WiFi info without permission[2]. They forcibly collect Android location info[3], and many more that people constantly forget (so do I). How does any of this earn respect from people? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15145176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15145176 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad... [3] https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...
- bad_user 9y ago
  Google is a US-based companies with subsidiaries in Europe. Quitting your country of origin doesn't make sense when the conditions haven't changed much since ~2000 when the company started. Such "why don't they..." questions represent a logical fallacy. In the US and Europe we can fight against censorship by lobbying, by getting the word out, etc. Yes, we have surveillance and are not winning every fight, but we still have rights, we still have freedom of speech and we still have the framework of the law to work in and politicians are still subject to the rules of democracy. In China on the other hand the whims of the ruling party reign supreme and before you open your mouth to say anything, I'll have you know that I'm a citizen of Romania, a former Communist country from the Warsaw Pact and I know communism ;-) And yes, Google has my respect for making a stand against Chinese censorship, regardless of your opinions about them.
  - 4684499 9y ago
    The attitude of this reply may get me downvoted or flagged, but I still want to say it. Five eyes are not only in Europe. Quitting your country of origin makes sense if you are those companies that claim to be friend of justice who also want to gain your people's respect. And Google is a multinational enterprise who loves tax havens very much.[1] Oh yes, the lobbying. How is the net neutrality thing going by the way? Has NSA/CIA/FBI stopped what they've being doing? Last time I heard about FBI is Apple opposes putting backdoor in their products. Apparently they didn't stop, yet they are seeking for some kind of power expanding. I hope your sense of superiority didn't come from "we are better than the worst." Voters and politicians accuse Russia group for buying commercials. Companies like Google/Facebook are censoring terrorism videos/hate speech/fake news they (not people) don't like. Why would they do such thing if they are so confident with freedom of speech? Yes, the government won't do many things to you because of the definition of freedom of speech, just like what Aaron Swartz said[2], the power of censorship is holding by private sectors, their policies can be transparent or shady whenever they want, to gain support from general people. Being open is part of their PR, not because there's law to force them. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailtracy/2016/02/19/google-moved-billions-of-dollars-to-bermuda-to-avoid-taxes-again/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailtracy/2016/02/19/google-... [2] https://www.wired.com/2013/04/aaron-swartz-interview/ https://www.wired.com/2013/04/aaron-swartz-interview/ edit: added links
dis-sys 9y ago
what a joke, when google left China it had already lost the battle with local competitors, check the market share immediate before its quit.
- cromwellian 9y ago
  It had 31% in 2010, which had grown from 15% in 2006. What do you think would have happened if Google Play and Google didn't get blocked? I'll tell you, many Android phones in China would have come with Google as the default, and those numbers would have went up. The blocking of Google.cn was more than just Search. YouTube, Drive, Gmail, Google Play, Maps, etc are all blocked. In 2010, Google and Amazon had an enormous advantage over BAT and if there was complete freedom, they would have taken substantially more of a chunk of services. This is not a localization issue. Google has 86% marketshare in Hong Kong and 91% in Taiwan. Search and hosting services localize easily. Google gave up an enormous opportunity by not being willing to kowtow to the standard practice of handing over half your company in a joint venture or adopting political control over information. If you look at the valuations of BAT, it was a substantial opportunity cost. But it was the right thing to do.
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    you may want to double check your facts first - the name of your favourite search engine google can not even be spelt by most Chinese, out of their market share of 15%, many had to use baidu to search for the address of google to get there. amazon never engaged in any real competition in China, it was ebay that lost the entire market because ebay was focusing on protecting buyers when taobao.com chose to better serve and protect sellers. High market share in Hong Kong and Taiwan? Well, how many local internet companies are there in those two places? How many qualified software engineers they have locally produced? You can keep worship google, the truth that you can never deny is that 10 years after google's exit, China's internet sector is more active and profitable than ever before with almost half of the the world top 10 Internet companies being Chinese. That brings huge number of both well paid and highly skilled jobs for Chinese. Such kind of personal freedom surely is not something you support.

by jeswin 9y ago

nikster 9y ago

You could also say they have enabled the rise of Baidu and with it a Google clone that is completely under the control of the Chinese government. I do respect Google for pulling out - this was actually the last time Google actually really tried to "don't be evil". Since then, they've thrown that overboard. But that one time, they did it. The problem is that the outcome was worse than remaining there. That was a lack of wisdom on Google's part. Apple could pull out, lose Billions of dollars and a hundred million users, Chinese wouldn't be able to get their hands on iPhones, and Samsung, Meizu, Huawei, and so on would be having a field day selling their government-approved devices, which, in terms of privacy, are infinitely worse than iPhones. Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like end to end encryption in iMessage and so on.

jakecopp 9y ago
I'm not sure about that that argument - in the same way you could argue below minimum wage work is okay because unemployment (or the alternative) is worse.
bad_user 9y ago
You're presenting a false dichotomy. Google would have lost to Baidu regardless and don't think for a second this wasn't factored in their decision. The Chinese are known for degrading the online experience of western services in preference for local alternatives. This coupled with the fact that Baidu really is better for the Chinese market, just how Yandex has been better for the Russian market. > Apple is actually implementing some pretty serious privacy features, like end to end encryption in iMessage and so on. The end to end encryption in iMessage is shit because Apple is managing the encryption keys and if your adversary is the Chinese government you'll get fucked given Apple's newfound willingness to bend over.
- cromwellian 9y ago
  Have you ever used Baidu? It's worse than Google even when searching for Chinese. Baidu did a few things well: it was good for finding pirated content and porn, but for actual research, it's horrible.
  - Infinitesimus 9y ago
    I don't think OP was saying Google would lose to Baidu because of quality, but because the Chinese government has deep fingers in Baidu there's a very good chance they will cripple Google's services in favor of Baidu's.

Cookingboy 9y ago

The question was what did it do for the Chinese people. The answer is not that much really. Google was also doing terribly business wise in China, its revenue was a small and it was losing the search war against local giants like Baidu anyway. It wasn't much of a courageous move but more so of a smooth PR move.

dis-sys 9y ago
No, it did a lot to Chinese. By exiting China, Chinese companies got the chance to actual grow and develop its talent pool. almost 10 years on, now 4 of the top 10 internet companies in the world are Chinese companies providing huge number of high paying highly skilled jobs to Chinese. feel free to compare what Europe and Japan managed to get in the last decade in terms of Internet based economy.

4684499 9y ago

I don't understand the argument. If Google's objective was to earn respect from many people, then why didn't they quit US or other Five Eyes countries after Snowden? They changed their motto from do no evil to do the right thing. They quash ideas they don't like[1]. They collect WiFi info without permission[2]. They forcibly collect Android location info[3], and many more that people constantly forget (so do I). How does any of this earn respect from people? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15145176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15145176 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad... [3] https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...

bad_user 9y ago
Google is a US-based companies with subsidiaries in Europe. Quitting your country of origin doesn't make sense when the conditions haven't changed much since ~2000 when the company started. Such "why don't they..." questions represent a logical fallacy. In the US and Europe we can fight against censorship by lobbying, by getting the word out, etc. Yes, we have surveillance and are not winning every fight, but we still have rights, we still have freedom of speech and we still have the framework of the law to work in and politicians are still subject to the rules of democracy. In China on the other hand the whims of the ruling party reign supreme and before you open your mouth to say anything, I'll have you know that I'm a citizen of Romania, a former Communist country from the Warsaw Pact and I know communism ;-) And yes, Google has my respect for making a stand against Chinese censorship, regardless of your opinions about them.
- 4684499 9y ago
  The attitude of this reply may get me downvoted or flagged, but I still want to say it. Five eyes are not only in Europe. Quitting your country of origin makes sense if you are those companies that claim to be friend of justice who also want to gain your people's respect. And Google is a multinational enterprise who loves tax havens very much.[1] Oh yes, the lobbying. How is the net neutrality thing going by the way? Has NSA/CIA/FBI stopped what they've being doing? Last time I heard about FBI is Apple opposes putting backdoor in their products. Apparently they didn't stop, yet they are seeking for some kind of power expanding. I hope your sense of superiority didn't come from "we are better than the worst." Voters and politicians accuse Russia group for buying commercials. Companies like Google/Facebook are censoring terrorism videos/hate speech/fake news they (not people) don't like. Why would they do such thing if they are so confident with freedom of speech? Yes, the government won't do many things to you because of the definition of freedom of speech, just like what Aaron Swartz said[2], the power of censorship is holding by private sectors, their policies can be transparent or shady whenever they want, to gain support from general people. Being open is part of their PR, not because there's law to force them. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailtracy/2016/02/19/google-moved-billions-of-dollars-to-bermuda-to-avoid-taxes-again/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailtracy/2016/02/19/google-... [2] https://www.wired.com/2013/04/aaron-swartz-interview/ https://www.wired.com/2013/04/aaron-swartz-interview/ edit: added links

dis-sys 9y ago

what a joke, when google left China it had already lost the battle with local competitors, check the market share immediate before its quit.

cromwellian 9y ago
It had 31% in 2010, which had grown from 15% in 2006. What do you think would have happened if Google Play and Google didn't get blocked? I'll tell you, many Android phones in China would have come with Google as the default, and those numbers would have went up. The blocking of Google.cn was more than just Search. YouTube, Drive, Gmail, Google Play, Maps, etc are all blocked. In 2010, Google and Amazon had an enormous advantage over BAT and if there was complete freedom, they would have taken substantially more of a chunk of services. This is not a localization issue. Google has 86% marketshare in Hong Kong and 91% in Taiwan. Search and hosting services localize easily. Google gave up an enormous opportunity by not being willing to kowtow to the standard practice of handing over half your company in a joint venture or adopting political control over information. If you look at the valuations of BAT, it was a substantial opportunity cost. But it was the right thing to do.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  you may want to double check your facts first - the name of your favourite search engine google can not even be spelt by most Chinese, out of their market share of 15%, many had to use baidu to search for the address of google to get there. amazon never engaged in any real competition in China, it was ebay that lost the entire market because ebay was focusing on protecting buyers when taobao.com chose to better serve and protect sellers. High market share in Hong Kong and Taiwan? Well, how many local internet companies are there in those two places? How many qualified software engineers they have locally produced? You can keep worship google, the truth that you can never deny is that 10 years after google's exit, China's internet sector is more active and profitable than ever before with almost half of the the world top 10 Internet companies being Chinese. That brings huge number of both well paid and highly skilled jobs for Chinese. Such kind of personal freedom surely is not something you support.