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It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democr

It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democracy in general. I think it's unfair to assume that if Apple was to outright leave the Chinese market that this would somehow change China's stance on censorship. Instead, it will just likely cause competition to fill the gap as already is the case with many things in China's tech scene today. So what do people think is the right choice for them? Leave China all together and say "no way, we won't be here unless the internet is totally open" or "we'll accept it.. for now"?

peculiarbird 9y ago
That has been American thinking leading up to this point in time and guess what? IT ISN'T WORKING AND IT WONT WORK. China has their own culture and traditions and that won't just change because we trade with them or Apple sells stuff there.
- slimsag 9y ago
  I don't think using caps helps your argument. Just saying that something isn't working doesn't mean there is a better option, either. Do you think there would be a different outcome if everyone pulled out of China completely and they do everything on their own without any external influence?
  - peculiarbird 9y ago
    The caps were to emphasize my point it wasn't meant to advance my argument Yes I don't think that bowing to blatant censorship is a good option. He is enabling the suppression of free speech to make sure his stock doesn't drop. There are some cases where trading with China would be fine but selling products to wall off free speech is not one of them
    - dang 9y ago
      > The caps were to emphasize my point That's explicitly against the site guidelines, so can you please not do it here? It's basically yelling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- forapurpose 9y ago
  It's not American thinking; these are recognized around the world as universal, inalienable rights. Also universal is every dictator's attempt to portray them as just another opinion which doesn't apply to the "culture" (a usefully indefinable, subjective word) of their country. It's a very old argument, with a disreputable, self-serving cast of advocates. Following that reasoning, communism, capitalism and international trade are emphatically not part of Chinese culture - not to mention the way people in China now dress and most of the technology and consumer goods they use. Imperial monarchies interspersed with periods of civil war, economic and cultural isolation, and all of it based around Confucianism - that's been the culture since around 250 BCE, and they forcefully rejected Western trade and technology when they encountered it in the mid-19th century (leading to some horrible actions by the UK and other nations). Chinese people in Taiwan and Hong Kong believe in and live these universal values, and they are the most prosperous, free, and stable regions of China. The values of freedom and democracy apply to other cultures worldwide, from Europe to India to China (Taiwan and Hong Kong) to Japan to South Korea to South Africa to Brazil. It's very hard to argue that they are just one nation's idiosyncrasy. And who is to say that the people of mainland China don't want these things? Why not ask them? If Xi is so sure that a communist dictatorship has broad support, why not hold a vote?
jeffdavis 9y ago
"It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democracy in general." That hypothesis made sense with trade before and it makes sense with technology now. Unfortunately, decades of waiting have yielded no positive results. Yes, leave. The Chinese are more likely to be hopeful of freedom if they don't see Americans as equivalently bad.
- kercker 9y ago
  If Apple leaves China, where would they manufacture iPhones?
  - jeffdavis 9y ago
    Korea? Japan? Taiwan? The US?
    - kercker 9y ago
      If Apple doesn't manufacture iPhones in China, can the combined manufacture capacities in these countries satisfy the demand of iPhones globally? What I want to say is that Apple does not only sell products in China, it also manufactures its products in China.
richardknop 9y ago
I suspect more prosaic motive. Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders who want to sell in China as its big market and lot of money to be made. So Tim Cook has to do things like this in order to stay on the good side of the Chinese government. I wouldn’t see any hidden idealism behind it.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders ... That rationalization is used for a lot of damaging behavior; the duty to shareholders is not the only duty, and does not take priority over all the others. He also has responsibilities, for example, to employees and to his community, and for Apple the community is everywhere they sell products. Supporting the oppression of others in order to make money is wrong; it's evil. His job as CEO is to navigate difficult issues like this one; the easy questions can be left to the junior managers.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Unfortunately in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes priority over anything else. As long as you are not breaking the law (but even that can be solved by lobbying government to add loopholes to legislature), shareholders will be happy with anything you do which makes them more money. Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market? I'm not sure Tim Cook could get away with that even if he wanted to. Board would replace him with CEO more aligned with profit oriented shareholders imho. Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs, he is certainly be replaceable.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      > in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes priority over anything else That's not actually true, though I agree that it is often repeated and there is pressure from shareholders and others. It's not and never has required absolute obedience; and IIRC even that idea in the theoretical sense was developed in the 1980s, long after the advent of large public companies. > Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market? His choices are not so extreme. He doesn't have to show up at this conference, for example, or he can make a speech that promotes the freedom of the Chinese people. There are many other ways to navigate the situation; see my prior comment regarding that subject.

peculiarbird 9y ago

That has been American thinking leading up to this point in time and guess what? IT ISN'T WORKING AND IT WONT WORK. China has their own culture and traditions and that won't just change because we trade with them or Apple sells stuff there.

slimsag 9y ago
I don't think using caps helps your argument. Just saying that something isn't working doesn't mean there is a better option, either. Do you think there would be a different outcome if everyone pulled out of China completely and they do everything on their own without any external influence?
- peculiarbird 9y ago
  The caps were to emphasize my point it wasn't meant to advance my argument Yes I don't think that bowing to blatant censorship is a good option. He is enabling the suppression of free speech to make sure his stock doesn't drop. There are some cases where trading with China would be fine but selling products to wall off free speech is not one of them
  - dang 9y ago
    > The caps were to emphasize my point That's explicitly against the site guidelines, so can you please not do it here? It's basically yelling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
forapurpose 9y ago
It's not American thinking; these are recognized around the world as universal, inalienable rights. Also universal is every dictator's attempt to portray them as just another opinion which doesn't apply to the "culture" (a usefully indefinable, subjective word) of their country. It's a very old argument, with a disreputable, self-serving cast of advocates. Following that reasoning, communism, capitalism and international trade are emphatically not part of Chinese culture - not to mention the way people in China now dress and most of the technology and consumer goods they use. Imperial monarchies interspersed with periods of civil war, economic and cultural isolation, and all of it based around Confucianism - that's been the culture since around 250 BCE, and they forcefully rejected Western trade and technology when they encountered it in the mid-19th century (leading to some horrible actions by the UK and other nations). Chinese people in Taiwan and Hong Kong believe in and live these universal values, and they are the most prosperous, free, and stable regions of China. The values of freedom and democracy apply to other cultures worldwide, from Europe to India to China (Taiwan and Hong Kong) to Japan to South Korea to South Africa to Brazil. It's very hard to argue that they are just one nation's idiosyncrasy. And who is to say that the people of mainland China don't want these things? Why not ask them? If Xi is so sure that a communist dictatorship has broad support, why not hold a vote?

jeffdavis 9y ago

"It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democracy in general." That hypothesis made sense with trade before and it makes sense with technology now. Unfortunately, decades of waiting have yielded no positive results. Yes, leave. The Chinese are more likely to be hopeful of freedom if they don't see Americans as equivalently bad.

kercker 9y ago
If Apple leaves China, where would they manufacture iPhones?
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  Korea? Japan? Taiwan? The US?
  - kercker 9y ago
    If Apple doesn't manufacture iPhones in China, can the combined manufacture capacities in these countries satisfy the demand of iPhones globally? What I want to say is that Apple does not only sell products in China, it also manufactures its products in China.

richardknop 9y ago

I suspect more prosaic motive. Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders who want to sell in China as its big market and lot of money to be made. So Tim Cook has to do things like this in order to stay on the good side of the Chinese government. I wouldn’t see any hidden idealism behind it.

forapurpose 9y ago
> Tim Cook has fiduciary duty to his shareholders ... That rationalization is used for a lot of damaging behavior; the duty to shareholders is not the only duty, and does not take priority over all the others. He also has responsibilities, for example, to employees and to his community, and for Apple the community is everywhere they sell products. Supporting the oppression of others in order to make money is wrong; it's evil. His job as CEO is to navigate difficult issues like this one; the easy questions can be left to the junior managers.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Unfortunately in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes priority over anything else. As long as you are not breaking the law (but even that can be solved by lobbying government to add loopholes to legislature), shareholders will be happy with anything you do which makes them more money. Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market? I'm not sure Tim Cook could get away with that even if he wanted to. Board would replace him with CEO more aligned with profit oriented shareholders imho. Tim Cook is not Steve Jobs, he is certainly be replaceable.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > in free market capitalist system duty to shareholders takes priority over anything else That's not actually true, though I agree that it is often repeated and there is pressure from shareholders and others. It's not and never has required absolute obedience; and IIRC even that idea in the theoretical sense was developed in the 1980s, long after the advent of large public companies. > Do you suggest Apple leave Chinese market? His choices are not so extreme. He doesn't have to show up at this conference, for example, or he can make a speech that promotes the freedom of the Chinese people. There are many other ways to navigate the situation; see my prior comment regarding that subject.