3 ms·

That is only looking at one side of the minimum wage coin. There are also a lot of people who may only contribute 4$ of value per hour (inexperienced, etc) who

That is only looking at one side of the minimum wage coin. There are also a lot of people who may only contribute 4$ of value per hour (inexperienced, etc) who would like to work at that wage but won't get hired due to their lack of value. But if they could get a job, they would gain experience and eventually start contributing more value and thus be able to justify a higher wage. Minimum wage hurts those who it is trying protect -- in fact when I worked menial "minimum wage " jobs, I was always actually paid more than minimum wage.

lsc 16y ago
did you read what I wrote? specifically: "On the other hand, if you hire 10 guys with brooms, you just eliminated a higher paying job in favor of 10 low paying jobs. this will tend to increase the number of people taking work that is beneath their skill level. so one could say that a high minimum wage is a subsidy on skilled labour." So yeah, a higher minimum wage does favor more expensive people who can be more productive over less expensive people who are less productive. My first job didn't pay minimum wage, and I know that some 15 year old fixing computers is rather different than an adult labourer trying to feed a family, but I feel that I benefited from having the job; It got me my next job (which was minimum wage) which started me down the path, a few years later, to a 'real job' with real pay.
- codexon 16y ago
  It got me my next job (which was minimum wage) which started me down the path, a few years later, to a 'real job' with real pay. It's all relative. When everyone starts having 2 unpaid internships or related work as a kid paid under the table, businesses start to expect this level of experience before hiring someone for a "real" job.
  - lsc 16y ago
    start to, nothing. most businesses expect you to have experience now, and, uh, you need to get that experience somehow. for me, it was a bigger problem than for most people. I didn't have a degree. It's hard to get a real job with a degree and no experience. getting a 'real job' with no degree and no experience is pretty much impossible. My brother, on the other hand, has been making $20+ an hour at his internships; a line I didn't cross until I made programmer. To be fair, he's the age I was when I got a 'programmer' title, and his responsibilities and accomplishments are similar to mine at his age; the only real difference is that when school starts, he heads back to school, while I kept working.
- meric 16y ago
  In a recession, it appears less skilled people are hit hardest in terms of underemployment and unemployment, perhaps the minimum wage needs to be "seasonally adjusted" in terms of the economy, otherwise the subsidy for skilled workers will be higher relatively during recessions. Unless, of course, that's what you wanted in the first place.
  - lsc 16y ago
    what we need is useful work to give unskilled people. something that pays at least minimum wage. Come on now, I know there is /something/ these people can do. How about cleaning houses? the barrier to hiring housekeepers, I believe, is mostly social. (and I think the problem with the employment market there is that most housekeepers work through agencies, which take huge cuts in exchange for providing little more than a classified ad and insurance.) Obviously, that won't solve the problem by itself. But we need to focus on finding something productive for the unskilled masses to do.
    - mmt 16y ago
      I applaud you for your sanity, despite it risking not being politically correct. I'll risk being even less PC and point out the elephant in the room: illegal immigrants aren't an insignificant factor. If I'm to trust my anlysis of the context of popular media[1], illegal immigration was already considered a problem by the late 70s. Does anyone know how many people were included in amnesties[2]? My belief here is that "undocumented" workers aren't subject to the same rules, parrticularly minimum wage. If there are millions of illegal immigrants (not all of whom are workers, granted), there are already jobs out there. The question is, can those jobs pay at least minimum wage? Even if they could, how many currently unemployed would be willing and able to work them. This, as it applies to farm labor, has been discussed previously on YC[3]. Your mentioning cleaning houses, however, is what prompted me to think in this direction. One of the most valuable things the agencies provide is a membrane of legitimacy, shielding the customer from the liability and administrative headaches (insurance, which you mention, being one of them) of being an employer. In any case, I agree that finding or creating productive (even minimum wage worthy) work for unskilled (not-yet-skilled?) labor is beneficial to the economy and society as a whole. The confounding factor is that such work in the US tends to attract such labor from outside our borders. I posit that even a successful effort would have no effect until the flow is stopped. Whether stopping the ingress of unskilled workers is feasible, politically or economically, is another matter. [1] Borderline (1980) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080465/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080465/ [2] e.g. IRCA, NACARA [3] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1500872 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1500872

lsc 16y ago

did you read what I wrote? specifically: "On the other hand, if you hire 10 guys with brooms, you just eliminated a higher paying job in favor of 10 low paying jobs. this will tend to increase the number of people taking work that is beneath their skill level. so one could say that a high minimum wage is a subsidy on skilled labour." So yeah, a higher minimum wage does favor more expensive people who can be more productive over less expensive people who are less productive. My first job didn't pay minimum wage, and I know that some 15 year old fixing computers is rather different than an adult labourer trying to feed a family, but I feel that I benefited from having the job; It got me my next job (which was minimum wage) which started me down the path, a few years later, to a 'real job' with real pay.

codexon 16y ago
It got me my next job (which was minimum wage) which started me down the path, a few years later, to a 'real job' with real pay. It's all relative. When everyone starts having 2 unpaid internships or related work as a kid paid under the table, businesses start to expect this level of experience before hiring someone for a "real" job.
- lsc 16y ago
  start to, nothing. most businesses expect you to have experience now, and, uh, you need to get that experience somehow. for me, it was a bigger problem than for most people. I didn't have a degree. It's hard to get a real job with a degree and no experience. getting a 'real job' with no degree and no experience is pretty much impossible. My brother, on the other hand, has been making $20+ an hour at his internships; a line I didn't cross until I made programmer. To be fair, he's the age I was when I got a 'programmer' title, and his responsibilities and accomplishments are similar to mine at his age; the only real difference is that when school starts, he heads back to school, while I kept working.
meric 16y ago
In a recession, it appears less skilled people are hit hardest in terms of underemployment and unemployment, perhaps the minimum wage needs to be "seasonally adjusted" in terms of the economy, otherwise the subsidy for skilled workers will be higher relatively during recessions. Unless, of course, that's what you wanted in the first place.
- lsc 16y ago
  what we need is useful work to give unskilled people. something that pays at least minimum wage. Come on now, I know there is /something/ these people can do. How about cleaning houses? the barrier to hiring housekeepers, I believe, is mostly social. (and I think the problem with the employment market there is that most housekeepers work through agencies, which take huge cuts in exchange for providing little more than a classified ad and insurance.) Obviously, that won't solve the problem by itself. But we need to focus on finding something productive for the unskilled masses to do.
  - mmt 16y ago
    I applaud you for your sanity, despite it risking not being politically correct. I'll risk being even less PC and point out the elephant in the room: illegal immigrants aren't an insignificant factor. If I'm to trust my anlysis of the context of popular media[1], illegal immigration was already considered a problem by the late 70s. Does anyone know how many people were included in amnesties[2]? My belief here is that "undocumented" workers aren't subject to the same rules, parrticularly minimum wage. If there are millions of illegal immigrants (not all of whom are workers, granted), there are already jobs out there. The question is, can those jobs pay at least minimum wage? Even if they could, how many currently unemployed would be willing and able to work them. This, as it applies to farm labor, has been discussed previously on YC[3]. Your mentioning cleaning houses, however, is what prompted me to think in this direction. One of the most valuable things the agencies provide is a membrane of legitimacy, shielding the customer from the liability and administrative headaches (insurance, which you mention, being one of them) of being an employer. In any case, I agree that finding or creating productive (even minimum wage worthy) work for unskilled (not-yet-skilled?) labor is beneficial to the economy and society as a whole. The confounding factor is that such work in the US tends to attract such labor from outside our borders. I posit that even a successful effort would have no effect until the flow is stopped. Whether stopping the ingress of unskilled workers is feasible, politically or economically, is another matter. [1] Borderline (1980) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080465/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080465/ [2] e.g. IRCA, NACARA [3] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1500872 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1500872