6 ms·

I went to Hanoi 10 years ago. First thing I tried to do was to get new batteries for my camera but the cashier (really old lady) just told me "Fk you, you fking

by polack 9y ago

I went to Hanoi 10 years ago. First thing I tried to do was to get new batteries for my camera but the cashier (really old lady) just told me "Fk you, you fking American!" and gave me the finger. First and only time I have been subjected to racism as a white european guy. Obviously not in a serious way, but was still interesting as an experience.

bitL 9y ago
Maybe it wasn't racism, maybe she went through hell during the war, lost relatives/parents/kids; frankly, why should she be nice? Would you be automatically capable of being nice to individual Germans, when their army massacred your relatives, 40 years after it happened?
- detaro 9y ago
  Treating someone badly because of what ethnicity they have is racism, yes, even if they might have reasons for feeling that way.
  - hennsen 9y ago
    American is not a race.
    - detaro 9y ago
      The poster explicitly mentions not being American. And "White American" is an ethnic category.
      - hennsen 9y ago
        But she says she thinks he is!
        hennsen 9y ago
        And she didn’t say white anything. Might have done the same with anybody she takes as an American of any color and shade.
        kuba77 9y ago
        That's racism.
        hennsen 9y ago
        It’s anti americanism.
  - KSS42 9y ago
    Was it racism? Ia "American" a race? Sounds like discrimination based on nationality.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      Useless pedantry is unhelpful.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      The use of “racism” to describe prejudice against traits other than inborn ones, such as nationality or ethnicity, goes back many decades and this is well recognized except by pedants. Take a look at the OED entry for “racist”.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Maybe it wasn't racism, maybe she went through hell during the war, lost relatives/parents/kids; That's not presenting an explanation of how it would not be racism, that's presenting an explanation of the manner in which the racism was formed. And, yes, racism usually forms based on negative experience (either personal or relayed through others, some of which may be intentionally or unintentionally distorting events) of either specific target races or “not-like-me” races generally. And, it's cyclical, because racism contributes to such experiences in others when it is put into action.
  - bitL 9y ago
    Racism implies race. I am pretty sure she would go along with other white nations that weren't involved, likely viewing Russians favorably. You can probably call it anti-americanism (or anti-usanianism if you are British). She didn't call him "gringo" nor "farang".
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Racism implies race. “Racism” is well-established for discrimination by race or ethnicity (the distinction between which is entirely arbitrary, anyway.)
      - travmatt 9y ago
        Seeing as American isn’t a race or ethnicity, it would seem the commenter is correct in saying this isn’t a case of racism.
        prestonh 9y ago
        It is in that she assumed he was American because he was white though.
        sufferer 9y ago
        We do not know that the cashier’s assumption of his Americanness was based entirely on what she perceived to be his race. What is probably most true is that her mind, based on a large dataset, “guessed” his Americanness and that his race may have had as much to do with that guess as his shoes (probably wearing sneakers, as American tourists tend to), his hat, glasses, shorts, phone, etc. Ever been to Europe as a white male American? They can tell you apart from white male Europeans instantly (usually from your shoes). Edit: words and grammar.
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  Yes, of course. Modern Germany is a moral leader of the world. German culture did massive soul searching after the war.
  - bitL 9y ago
    Would you do that without Germany's soul searching? Or would they do soul searching if they won or the war ended up in tie? Would you be easily willing to forgive?
    - lederhosen 9y ago
      Japan lost the war, yet they still can not educate their population about the horrors performed in Korea and China. They pretend nothing happened. That kind of response does not foster forgiveness. Germany on the other hand _really_ have taken a responsible path after the war, and I also believe there is an understanding (at least in northern and western Europe) that a big part of the blame that Hitler could take power was on the victors of the first world war (England and maybe more France). I guess better forgiveness for German aggression are due to good behaviour from post-war Germany, okay education in north and western Europe, and also that Germany behaved _relatively_ good on the western front. Of course it will take longer for eastern Europe mostly due to the extreme ugliness of the eastern front, and the huge economic differences.
      - bitL 9y ago
        This is not about Germany, please don't get defensive and apologetic ;-) Please read my comment again and substitute Germany for some other nation. Would that change your perspective? What post-war Germany did is admirable; now we are discussing two other nations which don't adhere to the same principles and don't go to same great lengths to fix it. Germany was used just as an example of a "repentant nation" which might deserve forgiveness. Would that be different if you weren't a repentant nation, which was the previous question?
        lederhosen 9y ago
- kelnos 9y ago
  > Would you be automatically capable of being nice to individual Germans, when their army massacred your relatives, 40 years after it happened? Um... yes? I'd be pretty ashamed and disappointed in myself if not. I think I know the difference between the actions of a government versus the beliefs and values held by any particular individual, even if they lived under that government. Not to mention the fact that people are not responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
Keyframe 9y ago
Also 10 years ago and nothing but nice people and real friendly towards me and my group. We didn't speak English though.
nebulous1 9y ago
Although it's perhaps unfortunate that this was her reaction, on other hand I think it's frankly pretty amazing how quickly some countries, such as Vietnam, start welcoming tourists from countries that they recently had very unpleasant wars with.
jawngee 9y ago
As someone who has been living in Vietnam for the last 7+ years, my bullshit meter is pegged to maximum.
- jimmies 9y ago
  I have some connections with people back in Vietnam. While the situation was extremely unlikely and most unfortunate, I can imagine this happening. There are many grandmas and grandpas who own shops that don't care about profits in Hanoi. I was visiting my old neighbors living in the countryside when I came back a couple of years ago. That particular gentleman is a farmer and he has one finger blown off while he was cutting a bomb or something. When I was growing up he has a little pond in front of his house, it's literally called the bomb pond. He has many people in his family killed in a bombing campaign. He told me something like "You're learning from the imperialist USA, I wish you the best. They know many that we don't." So he does hold a certain unfavorable view about the US, but I don't see that he would go as far as being hostile if, say, I take my US friends to him.

by polack 9y ago

bitL 9y ago

Maybe it wasn't racism, maybe she went through hell during the war, lost relatives/parents/kids; frankly, why should she be nice? Would you be automatically capable of being nice to individual Germans, when their army massacred your relatives, 40 years after it happened?

detaro 9y ago
Treating someone badly because of what ethnicity they have is racism, yes, even if they might have reasons for feeling that way.
- hennsen 9y ago
  American is not a race.
  - detaro 9y ago
    The poster explicitly mentions not being American. And "White American" is an ethnic category.
    - hennsen 9y ago
      But she says she thinks he is!
      - hennsen 9y ago
        And she didn’t say white anything. Might have done the same with anybody she takes as an American of any color and shade.
      - kuba77 9y ago
        That's racism.
        hennsen 9y ago
        It’s anti americanism.
- KSS42 9y ago
  Was it racism? Ia "American" a race? Sounds like discrimination based on nationality.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Useless pedantry is unhelpful.
  - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
    The use of “racism” to describe prejudice against traits other than inborn ones, such as nationality or ethnicity, goes back many decades and this is well recognized except by pedants. Take a look at the OED entry for “racist”.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Maybe it wasn't racism, maybe she went through hell during the war, lost relatives/parents/kids; That's not presenting an explanation of how it would not be racism, that's presenting an explanation of the manner in which the racism was formed. And, yes, racism usually forms based on negative experience (either personal or relayed through others, some of which may be intentionally or unintentionally distorting events) of either specific target races or “not-like-me” races generally. And, it's cyclical, because racism contributes to such experiences in others when it is put into action.
- bitL 9y ago
  Racism implies race. I am pretty sure she would go along with other white nations that weren't involved, likely viewing Russians favorably. You can probably call it anti-americanism (or anti-usanianism if you are British). She didn't call him "gringo" nor "farang".
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Racism implies race. “Racism” is well-established for discrimination by race or ethnicity (the distinction between which is entirely arbitrary, anyway.)
    - travmatt 9y ago
      Seeing as American isn’t a race or ethnicity, it would seem the commenter is correct in saying this isn’t a case of racism.
      - prestonh 9y ago
        It is in that she assumed he was American because he was white though.
        sufferer 9y ago
        We do not know that the cashier’s assumption of his Americanness was based entirely on what she perceived to be his race. What is probably most true is that her mind, based on a large dataset, “guessed” his Americanness and that his race may have had as much to do with that guess as his shoes (probably wearing sneakers, as American tourists tend to), his hat, glasses, shorts, phone, etc. Ever been to Europe as a white male American? They can tell you apart from white male Europeans instantly (usually from your shoes). Edit: words and grammar.
fjsolwmv 9y ago
Yes, of course. Modern Germany is a moral leader of the world. German culture did massive soul searching after the war.
- bitL 9y ago
  Would you do that without Germany's soul searching? Or would they do soul searching if they won or the war ended up in tie? Would you be easily willing to forgive?
  - lederhosen 9y ago
    Japan lost the war, yet they still can not educate their population about the horrors performed in Korea and China. They pretend nothing happened. That kind of response does not foster forgiveness. Germany on the other hand _really_ have taken a responsible path after the war, and I also believe there is an understanding (at least in northern and western Europe) that a big part of the blame that Hitler could take power was on the victors of the first world war (England and maybe more France). I guess better forgiveness for German aggression are due to good behaviour from post-war Germany, okay education in north and western Europe, and also that Germany behaved _relatively_ good on the western front. Of course it will take longer for eastern Europe mostly due to the extreme ugliness of the eastern front, and the huge economic differences.
    - bitL 9y ago
      This is not about Germany, please don't get defensive and apologetic ;-) Please read my comment again and substitute Germany for some other nation. Would that change your perspective? What post-war Germany did is admirable; now we are discussing two other nations which don't adhere to the same principles and don't go to same great lengths to fix it. Germany was used just as an example of a "repentant nation" which might deserve forgiveness. Would that be different if you weren't a repentant nation, which was the previous question?
      - lederhosen 9y ago
kelnos 9y ago
> Would you be automatically capable of being nice to individual Germans, when their army massacred your relatives, 40 years after it happened? Um... yes? I'd be pretty ashamed and disappointed in myself if not. I think I know the difference between the actions of a government versus the beliefs and values held by any particular individual, even if they lived under that government. Not to mention the fact that people are not responsible for the sins of their ancestors.

Keyframe 9y ago

Also 10 years ago and nothing but nice people and real friendly towards me and my group. We didn't speak English though.

nebulous1 9y ago

Although it's perhaps unfortunate that this was her reaction, on other hand I think it's frankly pretty amazing how quickly some countries, such as Vietnam, start welcoming tourists from countries that they recently had very unpleasant wars with.

jawngee 9y ago

As someone who has been living in Vietnam for the last 7+ years, my bullshit meter is pegged to maximum.

jimmies 9y ago
I have some connections with people back in Vietnam. While the situation was extremely unlikely and most unfortunate, I can imagine this happening. There are many grandmas and grandpas who own shops that don't care about profits in Hanoi. I was visiting my old neighbors living in the countryside when I came back a couple of years ago. That particular gentleman is a farmer and he has one finger blown off while he was cutting a bomb or something. When I was growing up he has a little pond in front of his house, it's literally called the bomb pond. He has many people in his family killed in a bombing campaign. He told me something like "You're learning from the imperialist USA, I wish you the best. They know many that we don't." So he does hold a certain unfavorable view about the US, but I don't see that he would go as far as being hostile if, say, I take my US friends to him.