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I live in the UK at the moment. They won't fucking shut up about WWI/WWII. It's one reason why the brexit negotiations have been such a mess: parts of the govt
by te_chris 9y ago
I live in the UK at the moment. They won't fucking shut up about WWI/WWII. It's one reason why the brexit negotiations have been such a mess: parts of the govt are still under the delusion that they're some sort of plucky saviour of Europe.
- hinkley 9y ago“Excuse me sir. Would you mind stepping over here for a moment? The delegates from the US and Russia would like to have a word in private.”
- robotresearcher 9y agoPerhaps Russia should be doing most of the talking. It paid 20X or so more in lives than the US or UK to win WWII. US and UK losses were about the same. Data from Wikipedia. WWWII deaths: Russia: 20,000,000 to 27,000,000 UK and colonies: 450,900 USA: 419,400 WWII Military dead: Russia: 8,668,000 to 11,400,00 UK and colonies: 383,700 USA: 407,300 At the time the population of the US was roughly 3X the UK, and the USSR was roughly 1.4X the US. edit: I wondered, and found that about 25% of US casualties were in the Pacific theater. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/Casualties/Casualties-1.html http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/Casualties/Casualtie... What terrible goddam war. Anyway, it's not like the Brits hid in a hole while the Americans saved everyone. No snarky comments at imaginary cocktail parties, please.
- kharms 9y agoSince we’re giving credit where it’s due, let’s not mix the USSR and Russia. Ukraine and Belarus suffered proportionately greater losses.
- jimnotgym 9y ago>Since we’re giving credit where it’s due, I thought this was going to be a joke about lend-lease!
- robotresearcher 9y agoSorry about that. Too late to edit. Replace Russia with USSR in my parent post.
- craftyguy 9y ago> It paid 20X or so more in lives Took bad Stalin felt like he needed to match that count during his subsequent extermination of "political enemies."
- berbec 9y ago"In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties." [1] Or doubled... 1: http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789 http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kil...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- billfruit 9y agoChinese deaths were quite large in number too, much more than American, French, British and German deaths, yet their role in conflict is seldom remembered.
- robotresearcher 9y agoThat's very true, but in the context of the war in Europe - the current topic - that's not really relevant. China did not save Europe from the Nazis.
- refurb 9y agoOne could argue the price that the USSR paid had a lot to do with their lack of military prowess. They won by using their citizens as cannon fodder. A great example is the Battle of Kursk. A defining moment when Germany lose as offensive capabilities in the East. It was a decisive win for the USSR, but the casualty numbers are astounding. German loses - ~54,000 deaths USSR loses - ~180,000 deaths
- ekianjo 9y ago> It paid 20X or so more in lives than the US or UK to win WWII The USSR's plan was to invade the whole of Europe anyway (Stalin was preparing for it well before Operation Barbarossa started - you can look it up, they had the largest tank division in the world back in the 30s, well above Germany, and with much more powerful tanks that were obviously not going to be used for peaceful purposes). So presenting them as "allied forces" has always felt amusing to me. They showed their true colors anyway right after Germany's defeat.
- alemontree 9y agoThe "Icebreaker" theory has been thoroughly debunked. It has no support among credible historians. And yes, they were building up their military in the 30's. They would have been complete idiots not to.
- golergka 9y agoUSSR entered WWII on Hitler's side.
- jimnotgym 9y ago"Is it true, in the last war, the only thing the Americans charged was the 10% on the money they lent us?", Corporal Jones. "The American delegate is here? Late as usual" Keep them coming...I love dragging up the old jokes
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jwdunne 9y agoA few older working class specifically cited being ruled by Germany by stealth. I think that's totally ridiculous and I voted to remain, though I am a millennial and don't know life outside of the EU. Irish tensions are resurfacing now too. A sticking point is the Irish/Northern Irish border. The government is being propped up by 10 fanatical, conservative unionist MPs (not the Tory kind) and have literally tanked what could have been significant EU progress. Now the feeling is that the unions hold disproportionate power over the UK government and that doesn't play well with a fragile good Friday agreement. Same story with Scotland. Now that NI potentially had single market access plus customs union, which those in power in NI didn't want, Scotland wants this too. Independence referendum was won based on "better together" and yet it seems they are now being dragged out of the EU against their will. What a mess!
- coldtea 9y ago>A few older working class specifically cited being ruled by Germany by stealth. I think that's totally ridiculous Not very ridiculous. The EU decision making process is a mess, and Germany controls the votes of many "proxy" states.
- bjelkeman-again 9y agoThat is usch a big oversimplification it nearly makes the comment pointless.
- jdhendrickson 9y agoCare to explain further for an interested American?
- tim333 9y agoThe EU processes are pretty complicated and limited in their powers. Each country remains sovereign and only signs up to deals they choose to so with for example the introduction of the Euro, which was mostly a French-German product, the UK and various countries chose not to join. The UK chose to join the single market which has common standards so Germany may indeed get input on our sausage standards for example but I wouldn't call that ruled by Germany. The main things people get annoyed with in the UK are parts of the single market agreement that we signed up to such as free movement of people and the inability to cut our own independent trade deals but that stuff was there from day one.
- vilmosi 9y agoAs someone else who currently lives in the UK, this is not true.
- bjelkeman-again 9y agoWhich part?
- barrkel 9y agoThey most definitely will not shut up about WWI/II; it's less an explicit verbosity than an assumed (and completely unwarranted) superiority. I know a bunch of British people who've visited the continent, and the only place they could think of to visit was Normandy, Dunkirk or the Somme. Their entire mental framing of Europe is around the wars, and their grandparents or great-grandparents. And the poppies! Always with the poppies. Insularity is real and many people, possibly a majority, outside the major metro areas are deeply incurious. The wars are the biggest semantic nodes in their heads associated with Europe, followed swiftly by something about bent bananas from Brussels.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- JetSetWilly 9y agoIf you look at the tourist habits of the typical British person, you will find that those examples are highly atypical. I don't think you'll find that the vast hordes going to Ibiza every year are "framing Europe around the wars". Secondly it is a bit insulting to blithely state that anyone from a non-metropolitan area is some sort of country bumpkin thicko.
- Balero 9y agoI'm from the north of England. Have genuinely heard people blame the Norman invasion and following anti-northen polices for issues.
- distances 9y agoAre they blaming the Roman invasion for anything?
- jakecopp 9y agoIn what way does the UK talk about WW1/WWII? In Australia the Anzac story seems to be pushed harder and harder every year.
- a_bonobo 9y agoIf you want to know more about the ANZAC push, there's a good book about this glorification of Anzacs as a political means: 'What's wrong with ANZAC?' by Reynolds/Lake There's a review here: https://overland.org.au/2010/07/non-fiction-review-%E2%80%93-what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-anzac/ https://overland.org.au/2010/07/non-fiction-review-%E2%80%93...
- rorykoehler 9y agoOnly the English go on about it. A significant number of them suffer from a bizarre superiority complex. This Brexit stuff with N. Ireland is bringing them all out of the wood work. As an open-minded EU facing Irishman it is massively satisfying watching the conservative element in the UK implode upon itself. I just hope they don't drag the rest of their country down with them.
- Chris2048 9y agoThat was only 72 years ago.
- heavenlyblue 9y agoTo be fair the situation with WWII is even worse in Russia. It still is an absolutely religious topic over there.