8 ms·

Introducing Messenger Kids

60 points by adidash 9y ago

miguelrochefort 9y ago
What a great move by Facebook. Understanding how kids engage with software is the perfect way to figure out what the future of software will be.
beager 9y ago
> There are no ads in Messenger Kids and your child’s information isn’t used for ads. I do wonder what quantity of data Facebook will collect on child users of this service though, and how that could be used. I’m not too well versed in COPPA outside of account creation restrictions, but I would hope that it has provisions for data collection on children.
- edf13 9y ago
  There you go... data shared with pretty much who they like (Within the mighty Fb group): "Our vendors and service providers. We may transfer information we collect to third party service providers that support our business, such as companies that provide technical infrastructure or support (like a content delivery network), provide customer service, or analyze how Messenger Kids is being used to help us improve the service. These partners must adhere to strict data confidentiality and security obligations set out in the agreements we enter with them (such as compliance with data privacy and protection laws and maintenance of administrative, physical and technical safeguards to prevent unauthorized access or disclosure of data) that are consistent with this Privacy Policy, including obligations that they only use the information we provide for performance of the services we specify. Facebook Family of Companies. Messenger Kids is part of Facebook, and we may share the information we collect in Messenger Kids within the family of companies that are part of Facebook to support the uses described above, and to improve the services provided by the FB family of companies. For example, parents use Facebook Messenger to communicate with their children on Messenger Kids, and Facebook uses information from Messenger Kids to support seamless cross-service communication." https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 (Edit for typo)
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  They will monitor them for signs of depression and make sure the "right" people are aware of it.
dovdovdov 9y ago
See Pied Piper? This is how you legally surveil underage users. for the lazy: https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483
mlevental 9y ago
fuck this. i'm sorry i know this isn't language appropriate to hn but fuck this. does anyone believe this is really for the betterment of any child's life? say anything you want about how children use messenger apps now and this just improves that experience for them but accommodations aside that's basically the same excuse that drug dealers use - "they're going to get it from somewhere so they might as well get it from me". we all know this is just another vehicle for ads (their promises notwithstanding) and we all know that fb/social media has pernicious effects on psychology, let alone child psychology. i don't live in a cabin in the woods and i'm not amish and i'm not a luddite (i consume technology more or less like everyone else) but yet still i challenge someone to show me the intrinsic value (as opposed to circumstantial to the fact that fb/social media inundates us).
- jug5 9y ago
  As long as it pacifies children and makes it easier for parents that's what matters. These days whether or not it is good for the child is irrelevant.
- zecg 9y ago
  Exactly. This is due to the fact that young people have not embraced facebook and use other networks, it's their attempt to get into a demographic that's lost to them. I'd wager they'll have to keep shopping around to get the kids, the name and logo are tainted.
- BenchRouter 9y ago
  I actually agree with you that this is "drug dealer" tactics but for totally different reasons. I think this is a classic "the first hit is free" move. It's a long-term play. I believe FB when they say they won't show ads to kids, or use their chats for ad scraping. What they really want is for those kids to become so familiar and dependent on the system (FB), that they naturally transition to being active FB users as adults. It's not a secret that FB has a perceived "uncool with kids" problem - hence the rise of things like Snapchat. If you hook them when they're really young, though, then FB just becomes an unquestioned part of life. As far as the tool itself, i dunno - I mean messenger tools have been a fact of life for quite some time now. AIM, ICQ, etc. I don't think FB messenger is particularly different other than the fact that it's attached to, well, FB.
sethjgore 9y ago
TLDR, Facebook wants your children to connect to you via a chat app. I'm more than saddened to see that among the tech giants, they are encouraging _children_ to just use face filters and video chatting, rather than encouraging them to go outside and interact with friends in person. Why does an app made specifically for children and families need filters at all? It doesn't really matter that they are not putting in ads in this app. It is still an app and it is still imprinting children to accept artificial, screen-based relationships as equal to real, in-person conversations with your family. Facebook is transforming the most important relationships in your life to a product. Commericalized.
- golergka 9y ago
  False dichotomy. It's not a choice between connecting in-person and via app; it's a choice between connecting with particular person via app or not spending time with them in any way.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    what percentage of people that you keep in touch with over social media that aren't in your immediate vicinity?
    - lfowles 9y ago
      I regularly keep in touch with quite a few coworkers that have moved away. Not to mention college friends who all went their separate ways.
    - fwn 9y ago
      In my case that's roughly 10 people. The only one I regularly see and hold strong online conversations with is my girlfriend. This is probably true for of most people not living in their hometown or having connections through college or work.
    - golergka 9y ago
      Most of them. Best case, it's a friend that I would see every second weekend or so, but chat with and comment every day.
tzahola 9y ago
>your child’s information isn’t used for ads I’ll translate: Your child’s information will be used, but not for ads.
- kroltan 9y ago
  Or maybe for ads, but not ads for your kid. Maybe you'll start to see lots of LEGO ads or whatever!
- vnchr 9y ago
  The seed planted in youth need not yield fruit. At maturity, it will provide a lifetime of advertising revenue.
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  For now.
christilut 9y ago
Another brick in the walled garden of the Facebook internet of the future. Now even kids below the age of 13 will have a Facebook account, setup by their parents who are already on Facebook anyway and enticed by exactly what they want to hear ("More Fun For Kids, More Control For Parents") thanks to the marketing team.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  > Now even kids below the age of 13 will have a Facebook account They already had, they were just lying about their age. Anecdata: all of my colleagues with children let their child create a Facebook and Whatsapp account (that one is really big here in the Netherlands) at age 10, because not doing so means having your kid be the one child in class without it (with all the bullying and ostracization that implies).
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    This comment needs to be higher; kids will get on messenger apps regardless. The previous generation used MSN Messenger and such.
chrisper 9y ago
Just a question of time until Europe starts having issues with this. Rightfully so.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  Does Europe have an issue with Youtube Kids? With kids using Facebook / Messenger / Whatsapp / etc without being the age they are supposed to be according to the T&C?
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Well, I was thinking of this case (from a German Newspaper, but I am sure there are English sources somewhere as well.) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fdigital%2Fdatenschutz%2F2017-11%2Fkinderuhr-ueberwachung-monitorfunktion-verboten-bundesnetzagentur&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev...
zecg 9y ago
There is already a secure app for kids, it's called Signal. I'd say secure channels are what kids need and not constant parental surveillance. In my opinion, when you decide that kids are old enough to use a smartphone, you should teach them how to use it responsibly and not censor / snoop around unless they have a problem and ask for help.
supermdguy 9y ago
Wow. Just like tobacco companies targeting kids[0] Facebook is making sure their targets get hooked even younger. > After talking to thousands of parents, associations like National PTA, and parenting experts in the US Which "parenting experts" are in favor of giving kids more time on electronics? [0]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tobacco-companies-still-target-youth/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tobacco-companies...
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  It's not about giving kids more time on electronics, it's about giving kids access to a more sheltered and moderated environment. As mentioned earlier, a lot of "us" were on completely open and unmoderated IRC and ICQ networks back when we were the age this app is aimed at. So many underage people have gotten their share of perverts and abuse and whatnot on those. I'm not saying this app is good or Facebook saves the children or whatever, I'm saying that the alternative is unfiltered chat.
  - supermdguy 9y ago
    Ok, that makes sense. So, it's essentially a necessary evil. In the end, though, facebook wins.
- scotty79 9y ago
  So companies manufacturing baby phone toys are just sneaky drug dealers trying to addict children to telephone drug? Chat is a communication tool. Why so much hate for facebook chat app? None of that I've seen when facebook dumped ton of brain dead (often pay to win) games on children or when apple did the same with their app store.
  - supermdguy 9y ago
    > manufacturing baby phone toys There's no market for baby phone toys for adults. However, kids who get into the facebook ecosystem via "messenger kids" could be locked in for years. > Chat is a communication tool. I agree that it's much better than games, but it's still a way to get kids attached to a system that they don't fully understand. Yes, it's just a chat app, but, given that facebook is a business, its ultimate purpose is to make money.
tcd 9y ago
Doesn't this contradict FB's terms and conditions [1] I quote: > You will not use Facebook if you are under 13. [1]: https://www.facebook.com/terms.php https://www.facebook.com/terms.php
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  This isn't Facebook, it's Facebook Messenger for Kids. It's linked to a parents' account (who usually are above 13), so they are legally responsible in the end.
nyxtom 9y ago
This is messed up
jops 9y ago
What can we do to protect our world from the the mega-corps degrading society and eating our souls with their moral compass lacking commercialisation of our very existence? Serious question.
- christilut 9y ago
  I'd hate to go all political but it seems pretty obvious lately: go out and vote Don't vote Republican. In the EU it's much less of an issue thankfully but still, vote for the right party and not the popular or nationalistic party.
- emerged 9y ago
  How about a "keep your e-paws off our kids" boycott? Literally the only thing which could work at this point.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
have_faith 9y ago
The current situation is that if you leave Facebook you risk missing out on friends or family's various events, updates and so on but that is mostly just annoying. This moves the needle slightly. If Facebook can convince families to organise themselves through Facebook, not being on Facebook becomes much more stigmatising than before. Very powerful stuff.
Tepix 9y ago
Whenever Facebook talks about trust, privacy and confidentiality they imply that they are to be trusted. That's simply not true. > Facebook is opening up to children under age 13 with a privacy-focused app I feel like I want to throw up.
sidcool 9y ago
Get them hooked early. Revenue for the future.
- scotty79 9y ago
  So baby phone toys is just entry drug peddled by big teleco?
- jasonkostempski 9y ago
  It might also get at least 1 additional adult that may not have had an account otherwise :/
manishsharan 9y ago
And this is why we must force our kids to watch "Enemy of The State" and perhaps "Person of Interest " (episodes where Samaritan is up) every holiday. I think its a good introduction to the value of privacy for kids.
pythonaut_16 9y ago
I'm shocked by the overwhelmingly negative response here. Honestly I expect better when I come to Hackernews. Facebook announces a novel app trying to solve common problems with kids using and communicating on the internet and everyone in the comments just comes out with their personal ax to grind with Facebook. I get it. You hate Facebook, Facebook is a drug, Facebook kicked your dog. All of those might be valid criticisms, and if this was an article titled 'Facebook is destroying everything' I would be very interested in reading those opinions. But as it is, all I see are shallow criticisms of Facebook as a whole rather than any kind of nuanced discussion of the Messenger for Kids app. Personally I'm intrigued by the idea. Kids want to communicate using the internet (and before the internet it was phone numbers and texting), but this is the first time I've seen an approach that really helps parents to monitor who their kids are connecting to on the app. Maybe Facebook is the wrong company to present this app; maybe the connection to Facebook is concerning. But the app itself I think represents the right direction to go in designing apps that minors can use to communicate and helping parents to keep their kids safe online.
- j605 9y ago
  I would use Signal instead to communicate with my kid if necessary.
  - pythonaut_16 9y ago
    That works if you need to communicate with them one-to-one. But does Signal let you easily add any other Signal user as a contact? What about when your kid wants to talk to their friends on the app? To me the appeal of what Facebook is doing here is that it lets you give your kids freedom to use the app while letting you as a parent create the whitelist of who they're able to talk to.
    - j605 9y ago
      Signal works with phone numbers, so you can talk to any contact that is also on the app. There is no parental control but how do you assume kids can't text random people. Blocking/banning makes users highly creative.
bluedino 9y ago
>> This preview is available on the App Store for iPad, iPod touch, and iPhone. Does FB typically not include Android on betas?
manmal 9y ago
I think about 95% of posts in this thread are currently negative (IMO a great thing!). I’d be interested what the reception will be like in the broader population. If this sentiment is universal, Facebook has a big problem - it would mean trust has eroded to the point that most people only grudgingly use it, and to me that cries for disruption.

60 points by adidash 9y ago

What a great move by Facebook. Understanding how kids engage with software is the perfect way to figure out what the future of software will be.

beager 9y ago

> There are no ads in Messenger Kids and your child’s information isn’t used for ads. I do wonder what quantity of data Facebook will collect on child users of this service though, and how that could be used. I’m not too well versed in COPPA outside of account creation restrictions, but I would hope that it has provisions for data collection on children.

edf13 9y ago
There you go... data shared with pretty much who they like (Within the mighty Fb group): "Our vendors and service providers. We may transfer information we collect to third party service providers that support our business, such as companies that provide technical infrastructure or support (like a content delivery network), provide customer service, or analyze how Messenger Kids is being used to help us improve the service. These partners must adhere to strict data confidentiality and security obligations set out in the agreements we enter with them (such as compliance with data privacy and protection laws and maintenance of administrative, physical and technical safeguards to prevent unauthorized access or disclosure of data) that are consistent with this Privacy Policy, including obligations that they only use the information we provide for performance of the services we specify. Facebook Family of Companies. Messenger Kids is part of Facebook, and we may share the information we collect in Messenger Kids within the family of companies that are part of Facebook to support the uses described above, and to improve the services provided by the FB family of companies. For example, parents use Facebook Messenger to communicate with their children on Messenger Kids, and Facebook uses information from Messenger Kids to support seamless cross-service communication." https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 (Edit for typo)
jasonkostempski 9y ago
They will monitor them for signs of depression and make sure the "right" people are aware of it.

dovdovdov 9y ago

See Pied Piper? This is how you legally surveil underage users. for the lazy: https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483 https://www.facebook.com/help/118909212153483

mlevental 9y ago

fuck this. i'm sorry i know this isn't language appropriate to hn but fuck this. does anyone believe this is really for the betterment of any child's life? say anything you want about how children use messenger apps now and this just improves that experience for them but accommodations aside that's basically the same excuse that drug dealers use - "they're going to get it from somewhere so they might as well get it from me". we all know this is just another vehicle for ads (their promises notwithstanding) and we all know that fb/social media has pernicious effects on psychology, let alone child psychology. i don't live in a cabin in the woods and i'm not amish and i'm not a luddite (i consume technology more or less like everyone else) but yet still i challenge someone to show me the intrinsic value (as opposed to circumstantial to the fact that fb/social media inundates us).

jug5 9y ago
As long as it pacifies children and makes it easier for parents that's what matters. These days whether or not it is good for the child is irrelevant.
zecg 9y ago
Exactly. This is due to the fact that young people have not embraced facebook and use other networks, it's their attempt to get into a demographic that's lost to them. I'd wager they'll have to keep shopping around to get the kids, the name and logo are tainted.
BenchRouter 9y ago
I actually agree with you that this is "drug dealer" tactics but for totally different reasons. I think this is a classic "the first hit is free" move. It's a long-term play. I believe FB when they say they won't show ads to kids, or use their chats for ad scraping. What they really want is for those kids to become so familiar and dependent on the system (FB), that they naturally transition to being active FB users as adults. It's not a secret that FB has a perceived "uncool with kids" problem - hence the rise of things like Snapchat. If you hook them when they're really young, though, then FB just becomes an unquestioned part of life. As far as the tool itself, i dunno - I mean messenger tools have been a fact of life for quite some time now. AIM, ICQ, etc. I don't think FB messenger is particularly different other than the fact that it's attached to, well, FB.

sethjgore 9y ago

TLDR, Facebook wants your children to connect to you via a chat app. I'm more than saddened to see that among the tech giants, they are encouraging _children_ to just use face filters and video chatting, rather than encouraging them to go outside and interact with friends in person. Why does an app made specifically for children and families need filters at all? It doesn't really matter that they are not putting in ads in this app. It is still an app and it is still imprinting children to accept artificial, screen-based relationships as equal to real, in-person conversations with your family. Facebook is transforming the most important relationships in your life to a product. Commericalized.

golergka 9y ago
False dichotomy. It's not a choice between connecting in-person and via app; it's a choice between connecting with particular person via app or not spending time with them in any way.
- mlevental 9y ago
  what percentage of people that you keep in touch with over social media that aren't in your immediate vicinity?
  - lfowles 9y ago
    I regularly keep in touch with quite a few coworkers that have moved away. Not to mention college friends who all went their separate ways.
  - fwn 9y ago
    In my case that's roughly 10 people. The only one I regularly see and hold strong online conversations with is my girlfriend. This is probably true for of most people not living in their hometown or having connections through college or work.
  - golergka 9y ago
    Most of them. Best case, it's a friend that I would see every second weekend or so, but chat with and comment every day.

tzahola 9y ago

>your child’s information isn’t used for ads I’ll translate: Your child’s information will be used, but not for ads.

kroltan 9y ago
Or maybe for ads, but not ads for your kid. Maybe you'll start to see lots of LEGO ads or whatever!
vnchr 9y ago
The seed planted in youth need not yield fruit. At maturity, it will provide a lifetime of advertising revenue.
jasonkostempski 9y ago
For now.

christilut 9y ago

Another brick in the walled garden of the Facebook internet of the future. Now even kids below the age of 13 will have a Facebook account, setup by their parents who are already on Facebook anyway and enticed by exactly what they want to hear ("More Fun For Kids, More Control For Parents") thanks to the marketing team.

Freak_NL 9y ago
> Now even kids below the age of 13 will have a Facebook account They already had, they were just lying about their age. Anecdata: all of my colleagues with children let their child create a Facebook and Whatsapp account (that one is really big here in the Netherlands) at age 10, because not doing so means having your kid be the one child in class without it (with all the bullying and ostracization that implies).
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  This comment needs to be higher; kids will get on messenger apps regardless. The previous generation used MSN Messenger and such.

chrisper 9y ago

Just a question of time until Europe starts having issues with this. Rightfully so.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
Does Europe have an issue with Youtube Kids? With kids using Facebook / Messenger / Whatsapp / etc without being the age they are supposed to be according to the T&C?
- chrisper 9y ago
  Well, I was thinking of this case (from a German Newspaper, but I am sure there are English sources somewhere as well.) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fdigital%2Fdatenschutz%2F2017-11%2Fkinderuhr-ueberwachung-monitorfunktion-verboten-bundesnetzagentur&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev...

zecg 9y ago

There is already a secure app for kids, it's called Signal. I'd say secure channels are what kids need and not constant parental surveillance. In my opinion, when you decide that kids are old enough to use a smartphone, you should teach them how to use it responsibly and not censor / snoop around unless they have a problem and ask for help.

supermdguy 9y ago

Wow. Just like tobacco companies targeting kids[0] Facebook is making sure their targets get hooked even younger. > After talking to thousands of parents, associations like National PTA, and parenting experts in the US Which "parenting experts" are in favor of giving kids more time on electronics? [0]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tobacco-companies-still-target-youth/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tobacco-companies...

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
It's not about giving kids more time on electronics, it's about giving kids access to a more sheltered and moderated environment. As mentioned earlier, a lot of "us" were on completely open and unmoderated IRC and ICQ networks back when we were the age this app is aimed at. So many underage people have gotten their share of perverts and abuse and whatnot on those. I'm not saying this app is good or Facebook saves the children or whatever, I'm saying that the alternative is unfiltered chat.
- supermdguy 9y ago
  Ok, that makes sense. So, it's essentially a necessary evil. In the end, though, facebook wins.
scotty79 9y ago
So companies manufacturing baby phone toys are just sneaky drug dealers trying to addict children to telephone drug? Chat is a communication tool. Why so much hate for facebook chat app? None of that I've seen when facebook dumped ton of brain dead (often pay to win) games on children or when apple did the same with their app store.
- supermdguy 9y ago
  > manufacturing baby phone toys There's no market for baby phone toys for adults. However, kids who get into the facebook ecosystem via "messenger kids" could be locked in for years. > Chat is a communication tool. I agree that it's much better than games, but it's still a way to get kids attached to a system that they don't fully understand. Yes, it's just a chat app, but, given that facebook is a business, its ultimate purpose is to make money.

tcd 9y ago

Doesn't this contradict FB's terms and conditions [1] I quote: > You will not use Facebook if you are under 13. [1]: https://www.facebook.com/terms.php https://www.facebook.com/terms.php

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
This isn't Facebook, it's Facebook Messenger for Kids. It's linked to a parents' account (who usually are above 13), so they are legally responsible in the end.

nyxtom 9y ago

This is messed up

jops 9y ago

What can we do to protect our world from the the mega-corps degrading society and eating our souls with their moral compass lacking commercialisation of our very existence? Serious question.

christilut 9y ago
I'd hate to go all political but it seems pretty obvious lately: go out and vote Don't vote Republican. In the EU it's much less of an issue thankfully but still, vote for the right party and not the popular or nationalistic party.
emerged 9y ago
How about a "keep your e-paws off our kids" boycott? Literally the only thing which could work at this point.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

have_faith 9y ago

The current situation is that if you leave Facebook you risk missing out on friends or family's various events, updates and so on but that is mostly just annoying. This moves the needle slightly. If Facebook can convince families to organise themselves through Facebook, not being on Facebook becomes much more stigmatising than before. Very powerful stuff.

Tepix 9y ago

Whenever Facebook talks about trust, privacy and confidentiality they imply that they are to be trusted. That's simply not true. > Facebook is opening up to children under age 13 with a privacy-focused app I feel like I want to throw up.

sidcool 9y ago

Get them hooked early. Revenue for the future.

scotty79 9y ago
So baby phone toys is just entry drug peddled by big teleco?
jasonkostempski 9y ago
It might also get at least 1 additional adult that may not have had an account otherwise :/

manishsharan 9y ago

And this is why we must force our kids to watch "Enemy of The State" and perhaps "Person of Interest " (episodes where Samaritan is up) every holiday. I think its a good introduction to the value of privacy for kids.

pythonaut_16 9y ago

I'm shocked by the overwhelmingly negative response here. Honestly I expect better when I come to Hackernews. Facebook announces a novel app trying to solve common problems with kids using and communicating on the internet and everyone in the comments just comes out with their personal ax to grind with Facebook. I get it. You hate Facebook, Facebook is a drug, Facebook kicked your dog. All of those might be valid criticisms, and if this was an article titled 'Facebook is destroying everything' I would be very interested in reading those opinions. But as it is, all I see are shallow criticisms of Facebook as a whole rather than any kind of nuanced discussion of the Messenger for Kids app. Personally I'm intrigued by the idea. Kids want to communicate using the internet (and before the internet it was phone numbers and texting), but this is the first time I've seen an approach that really helps parents to monitor who their kids are connecting to on the app. Maybe Facebook is the wrong company to present this app; maybe the connection to Facebook is concerning. But the app itself I think represents the right direction to go in designing apps that minors can use to communicate and helping parents to keep their kids safe online.

j605 9y ago
I would use Signal instead to communicate with my kid if necessary.
- pythonaut_16 9y ago
  That works if you need to communicate with them one-to-one. But does Signal let you easily add any other Signal user as a contact? What about when your kid wants to talk to their friends on the app? To me the appeal of what Facebook is doing here is that it lets you give your kids freedom to use the app while letting you as a parent create the whitelist of who they're able to talk to.
  - j605 9y ago
    Signal works with phone numbers, so you can talk to any contact that is also on the app. There is no parental control but how do you assume kids can't text random people. Blocking/banning makes users highly creative.

bluedino 9y ago

>> This preview is available on the App Store for iPad, iPod touch, and iPhone. Does FB typically not include Android on betas?

manmal 9y ago

I think about 95% of posts in this thread are currently negative (IMO a great thing!). I’d be interested what the reception will be like in the broader population. If this sentiment is universal, Facebook has a big problem - it would mean trust has eroded to the point that most people only grudgingly use it, and to me that cries for disruption.