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Really? ..... Really? I ... you want an external actor, over which you have no control, to have judicial power over your government, because right now the deci

Really? ..... Really? I ... you want an external actor, over which you have no control, to have judicial power over your government, because right now the decisions go the way you want them to?

tomelders 9y ago
Last I checked, we get to vote for MEPs. So we do have control. And we have (had) representation on the European Council. And we had representation on the ECJ. The EU will still be there when we've left. And wether we're in the single market or not, we'll still have to play by their rules on most things. Brexit gives us less control, not more. And don't get me started on how the US and China are going to make us dance to their tune. And we certainly don't have any control over those two juggernauts.
- 88 9y ago
  Turnout at EU Parliament elections in the UK is dismal, and many (over a quarter in 2014) turnout only to lodge protest votes for UKIP, the BNP, etc. The EU certainly suffers from a ‘democratic deficit’. It’s a highly complex bureaucracy and the average British person’s knowledge of its institutions, officials, powers, etc. is woeful.
  - 7952 9y ago
    It is really complicated and that is a serious problem, even if you are in favour of the EU. We already have a confusing mess of different levels responsible for different things. I wonder if it would have helped to rationalise that so people could have been less overwhelmed and be more open to the EU. Simplicity is a feature.
DanBC 9y ago
> to have judicial power over your government, because right now the decisions go the way you want them to? Very few[1] cases that go to ECHR from the UK are sucessful, because ECHR sees the UK as strongly protective of the human rights of its citizens. If the UK stops being protective of my human rights I absolutely want an external actor to have some control. Why wouldn't I? [1] https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-cases/ https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-cases/
- bjelkeman-again 9y ago
  It is good to note that Brexit isn’t automatically an exit from European Court of Human Rights, if I read this correctly. These are separate institutions. http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-for-the-european-convention-on-human-rights/ http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-for-t...
  - frobozz 9y ago
    That's true, but the current PM has long been opposed to the ECHR. Even when apparently in favour of the EU. With the overpowered repeal bill, she can use Brexit to get us out of anything with 'E' in the name, without bothering to put it to parliament.
- 88 9y ago
  This article is about a ruling from the ECJ, not the ECHR, although the ECHR are also looking at the UK's surveillance regime. It's precisely these complexities which lead to the perception, held by many British people, that European courts are foreign, and shouldn't have the power to overrule British courts.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
da_n 9y ago
The EU is far from perfect, but the UK government has proven time and time again it requires oversight. The UK governments stance on e.g. encryption is nothing short of an international embarrassment. I am woeful for the future of this tiny island (I am a UK citizen).
- PeachPlum 9y ago
  So, I repeat in slightly different words: You want an external entity to have control over my democratically elected government because right now the decisions aren't your personal preferences.
  - da_n 9y ago
    Yes, that is sort of the point of the EU. Whatever I wanted though, the vote has already happened, and the leavers won. We'll all be seeing what happens to the UK as a result.
    - PeachPlum 9y ago
      The EU operating against the will of the people is why Leave won.
jamiethompson 9y ago
In what sense is the EU a foreign actor? The EU is a union of nations of which the United Kingdom is a member, and (up until it started to chop its own dick off) one of the most powerful members at that.
- PeachPlum 9y ago
  Votes in the EU are weighted by population Germany 82,114,224 U.K. 66,181,585 France 64,979,548 Italy 59,359,900 Spain 46,354,321 So, yep. Most powerful being about 15% of the votes. Still doesn't make the EU a domestic political institution.

Really? ..... Really? I ... you want an external actor, over which you have no control, to have judicial power over your government, because right now the decisions go the way you want them to?

tomelders 9y ago

Last I checked, we get to vote for MEPs. So we do have control. And we have (had) representation on the European Council. And we had representation on the ECJ. The EU will still be there when we've left. And wether we're in the single market or not, we'll still have to play by their rules on most things. Brexit gives us less control, not more. And don't get me started on how the US and China are going to make us dance to their tune. And we certainly don't have any control over those two juggernauts.

88 9y ago
Turnout at EU Parliament elections in the UK is dismal, and many (over a quarter in 2014) turnout only to lodge protest votes for UKIP, the BNP, etc. The EU certainly suffers from a ‘democratic deficit’. It’s a highly complex bureaucracy and the average British person’s knowledge of its institutions, officials, powers, etc. is woeful.
- 7952 9y ago
  It is really complicated and that is a serious problem, even if you are in favour of the EU. We already have a confusing mess of different levels responsible for different things. I wonder if it would have helped to rationalise that so people could have been less overwhelmed and be more open to the EU. Simplicity is a feature.

DanBC 9y ago

> to have judicial power over your government, because right now the decisions go the way you want them to? Very few[1] cases that go to ECHR from the UK are sucessful, because ECHR sees the UK as strongly protective of the human rights of its citizens. If the UK stops being protective of my human rights I absolutely want an external actor to have some control. Why wouldn't I? [1] https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-cases/ https://fullfact.org/law/uks-record-human-rights-cases/

bjelkeman-again 9y ago
It is good to note that Brexit isn’t automatically an exit from European Court of Human Rights, if I read this correctly. These are separate institutions. http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-for-the-european-convention-on-human-rights/ http://www.e-ir.info/2017/07/27/implications-of-brexit-for-t...
- frobozz 9y ago
  That's true, but the current PM has long been opposed to the ECHR. Even when apparently in favour of the EU. With the overpowered repeal bill, she can use Brexit to get us out of anything with 'E' in the name, without bothering to put it to parliament.
88 9y ago
This article is about a ruling from the ECJ, not the ECHR, although the ECHR are also looking at the UK's surveillance regime. It's precisely these complexities which lead to the perception, held by many British people, that European courts are foreign, and shouldn't have the power to overrule British courts.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

da_n 9y ago

The EU is far from perfect, but the UK government has proven time and time again it requires oversight. The UK governments stance on e.g. encryption is nothing short of an international embarrassment. I am woeful for the future of this tiny island (I am a UK citizen).

PeachPlum 9y ago
So, I repeat in slightly different words: You want an external entity to have control over my democratically elected government because right now the decisions aren't your personal preferences.
- da_n 9y ago
  Yes, that is sort of the point of the EU. Whatever I wanted though, the vote has already happened, and the leavers won. We'll all be seeing what happens to the UK as a result.
  - PeachPlum 9y ago
    The EU operating against the will of the people is why Leave won.

jamiethompson 9y ago

In what sense is the EU a foreign actor? The EU is a union of nations of which the United Kingdom is a member, and (up until it started to chop its own dick off) one of the most powerful members at that.

PeachPlum 9y ago
Votes in the EU are weighted by population Germany 82,114,224 U.K. 66,181,585 France 64,979,548 Italy 59,359,900 Spain 46,354,321 So, yep. Most powerful being about 15% of the votes. Still doesn't make the EU a domestic political institution.