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In the Netherlands there is something akin to a 'fair use' provision for private usage of employer devices (email, iPad, mobile phone). General thought (exampl

by wjnc 9y ago

In the Netherlands there is something akin to a 'fair use' provision for private usage of employer devices (email, iPad, mobile phone). General thought (example) is that if you keep private emails on corporate adresses nicely separated in a seperate folder 'private' they should stay out of such folders.

sverhagen 9y ago
Are you sure that's not your employer's fair user policy? While you were typing this, I happened to be googling (in Dutch) and could find pretty much nothing of the sort. I found a good deal of articles saying that the lack of an employer's specific policy would make it harder to enforce, but that's still quite a ways away from it being allowed.
- wjnc 9y ago
  Full disclosure: last time another user called me out to a blatant mistake regarding Dutch law. So this time, I come well-sourced. My favorite blogging lawyer Arnoud Engelfriet: [1][2][3]. And some more [4] - A man who had to return wages after having spent 58 hours on Whatsapp while (not) working, note that he was not fired!. Number [5] tops it all - giving away company secrets on an employers phone is protected. [1] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2016/10/17/mag-werkgever-privebestanden-zakelijke-onedrive-bekijken/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2016/10/17/mag-werkgever-privebes... [2] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/09/13/oh-baas-mag-toch-meegluren-priveberichten-op-werk/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/09/13/oh-baas-mag-toch-meegl... [3] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2012/02/02/mag-mijn-ex-werkgever-mijn-oude-mailbox-aanhouden/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2012/02/02/mag-mijn-ex-werkgever-... [4] http://eisenmann.org/nieuws/67/privegebruik-van-de-zakelijke-telefoon-niet-onbegrensd http://eisenmann.org/nieuws/67/privegebruik-van-de-zakelijke... [5] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/08/14/ook-berichten-op-zakelijke-telefoon-kunnen-prive/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/08/14/ook-berichten-op-zakel... Actually I think this time we are both right. For non-exhaustibles and where usage is really widespread (email, whatsapp) it is clear that some private use is allowed. Main underlying argument is privacy. So that's a sort of negative defense. You can't prohibit it, since you are not allowed to monitor it's usage. For exhaustibles company specific guidelines can limit or prohibit. The test against those guidelines will be 'is it reasonable'. On the other hand, taking physical goods (printing paper, disposed machinery) is still ground for termination.
  - sverhagen 9y ago
    Last link doesn't work for me. The others focus mostly on the expectation of privacy that an employee has. Which makes it certainly harder to assert that a device was used for private purposes. But these articles don't really establish that private "fair" use is by definition allowed. I'd argue that if the employer had a way to determine in a noninvasive way that you used the computer for private purposes, that these articles hardly apply. How about some endpoint security scanner that asserts that you have illegal MP3s... in a folder called "Private"? What you and I both found is that employers need to treat employees equal, when asserting private use, and that it's a tough case in court anyhow, but that's not the same as it being legal.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    >>> You can't prohibit it, since you are not allowed to monitor it's usage. Yes you can! It's very common for companies to block access to gmail.com facebook.com and similar websites. I am not a laywer but that's a clear message that's it's not allowed. Circumventing with proxies/VPN should be grounded enough for termination.

by wjnc 9y ago

sverhagen 9y ago

Are you sure that's not your employer's fair user policy? While you were typing this, I happened to be googling (in Dutch) and could find pretty much nothing of the sort. I found a good deal of articles saying that the lack of an employer's specific policy would make it harder to enforce, but that's still quite a ways away from it being allowed.

wjnc 9y ago
Full disclosure: last time another user called me out to a blatant mistake regarding Dutch law. So this time, I come well-sourced. My favorite blogging lawyer Arnoud Engelfriet: [1][2][3]. And some more [4] - A man who had to return wages after having spent 58 hours on Whatsapp while (not) working, note that he was not fired!. Number [5] tops it all - giving away company secrets on an employers phone is protected. [1] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2016/10/17/mag-werkgever-privebestanden-zakelijke-onedrive-bekijken/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2016/10/17/mag-werkgever-privebes... [2] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/09/13/oh-baas-mag-toch-meegluren-priveberichten-op-werk/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/09/13/oh-baas-mag-toch-meegl... [3] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2012/02/02/mag-mijn-ex-werkgever-mijn-oude-mailbox-aanhouden/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2012/02/02/mag-mijn-ex-werkgever-... [4] http://eisenmann.org/nieuws/67/privegebruik-van-de-zakelijke-telefoon-niet-onbegrensd http://eisenmann.org/nieuws/67/privegebruik-van-de-zakelijke... [5] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/08/14/ook-berichten-op-zakelijke-telefoon-kunnen-prive/ https://blog.iusmentis.com/2017/08/14/ook-berichten-op-zakel... Actually I think this time we are both right. For non-exhaustibles and where usage is really widespread (email, whatsapp) it is clear that some private use is allowed. Main underlying argument is privacy. So that's a sort of negative defense. You can't prohibit it, since you are not allowed to monitor it's usage. For exhaustibles company specific guidelines can limit or prohibit. The test against those guidelines will be 'is it reasonable'. On the other hand, taking physical goods (printing paper, disposed machinery) is still ground for termination.
- sverhagen 9y ago
  Last link doesn't work for me. The others focus mostly on the expectation of privacy that an employee has. Which makes it certainly harder to assert that a device was used for private purposes. But these articles don't really establish that private "fair" use is by definition allowed. I'd argue that if the employer had a way to determine in a noninvasive way that you used the computer for private purposes, that these articles hardly apply. How about some endpoint security scanner that asserts that you have illegal MP3s... in a folder called "Private"? What you and I both found is that employers need to treat employees equal, when asserting private use, and that it's a tough case in court anyhow, but that's not the same as it being legal.
- user5994461 9y ago
  >>> You can't prohibit it, since you are not allowed to monitor it's usage. Yes you can! It's very common for companies to block access to gmail.com facebook.com and similar websites. I am not a laywer but that's a clear message that's it's not allowed. Circumventing with proxies/VPN should be grounded enough for termination.