3 ms·

> is that the tantrum isn't shameful or "wrong," it just is. Wait.. it is wrong. If we don't get something that we want, we don't throw a tantrum. Yes, it is

> is that the tantrum isn't shameful or "wrong," it just is. Wait.. it is wrong. If we don't get something that we want, we don't throw a tantrum. Yes, it is an emotional reaction, and it's one that isn't acceptable. I'm not a perfect parent, but IMO if I were in GP's shoes, I'd leave immediately. Throwing a tantrum is not acceptable, and the consequence has to be immediate and clear. That's my boundary.

methodover 9y ago
I think she might mean it's not wrong in the sense of "deeply immoral." Murderer is wrong. Physical abuse is wrong. Many things are deeply and intrinsically immoral. Tantrums aren't. They're unacceptable but they aren't immoral. At least not before a certain age.
dingaling 9y ago
As a parent I strongly agree with you. A tantrum indicates lack of emotional control and a lack of respect for other people in the area, both from the child and the parent. It's OK to be angry. It's not OK to let that anger take over physically once a child has more emotional maturity than a baby. For those who permit their children to behave like that, what will be the cut-off age when they have to stop? 12, 16, 18? Or 32 and throwing a tantrum in a workplace?
- icebraining 9y ago
  If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it. I doubt tantrums really are anger taking over, they're just an attempt at emotional manipulation of others, and they persist only if they get a positive response. Some kids do lose emotional control - a close (minor) family member had that problem, probably due to difficult childhood moments - but in that case they need help in handling it, not punishment. These are just my personal views; I'm certainly not an expert.
  - loco5niner 9y ago
    > If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it. The point is that children need to LEARN to control themselves, emotional or otherwise.
anon-20171203A 9y ago
I see it differently. A Zoo is a safe place for parenting and learning. If you feel disrespected by mere glancing on a child having a temper tantrum in a Zoo, then you and I simply aren't going to agree on much. I'm certainly not going to escalate a situation with my daughter to physical confrontation so that you might feel more comfortable.
- 3pt14159 9y ago
  Based on what you wrote, you're almost certainly a great parent, but I have a question: If your daughter learned by observing the boy using a tantrum to get his way, couldn't there be other children who observed both the boy and your daughter, see that a tantrum at the very worst amounts to a 50% chance of ice cream and a 50% chance of continuing the zoo trip? If you had told her: "When you're done, let me know. And if this goes on much longer we're going home once you're done." The other children may have observed possible negative consequences for their actions.
  - anon-20171203A 9y ago
    Thanks for the complement. To answer the question, I try not to escalate the situation or change the message while adrenaline is high. That said, after the tantrum was over and the crowd had dispersed, my daughter and I stayed and discussed the situation (and consequences). One mother and her 3 year old boy lingered, eventually joining in. Her young boy was very assured that he would never, ever have such a tantrum like that! I told him I was so relieved, especially because of hidden dangers like stinky horse urine puddles.
    - 3pt14159 9y ago
      I think that is great! Thanks for the reply, I hope I remember this message if I ever have children.
- Splines 9y ago
  There's two parts here: a.) What would I do, as the parent, if my child were to throw a tantrum, and b.) How would I react, as a parent, to another child throwing a tantrum. For A: As stated, I would leave immediately. I'll hedge that a bit and say that getting to the point where a child is rolling around on the ground is a failure for everyone concerned, so ideally we'd never reach this point in the first place. If there's a disagreement, my kids and I can talk it out without resorting to a tantrum. For B: I don't care what you do with your kids. In public at a zoo in an open area, have at it. It's a tough situation all around and I'm not going to make another parent's day worse by saying anything.
earksiinni 9y ago
I think that we may be talking past each other. I'm distinguishing between something being "wrong" vs. something being "acceptable." Wrongness to me is a moral attribute; whether something is acceptable is a purely subjective and individual quality. Maybe the tantrum is unacceptable to us and to nearly every other adult in human society, but it's still subjective. I think that parents absolutely should show with their actions and words whether something is acceptable _to them_ and give advice about what will be acceptable to others (they will learn soon enough anyway). That's what GP did by showing that throwing a tantrum was an unacceptable way to get ice cream. The key part is that he didn't then go on to say/communicate "and what you're doing is wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself," or something to that effect. The exact words don't matter, kids internalize shame very easily: if you think it's wrong or shameful, then they will get the point. It will be effective at preventing the behavior in the future, but damn, shame is like the nuclear option in my opinion when it comes to parenting. Obviously there's a healthy amount of shame that we should all have for things that are genuinely shameful. But is there really anything shameful or wrong about a lack of emotional control? The child is a child, they don't know any better. So the question is what is unacceptable? I would argue that the tantrum itself is totally acceptable, assuming (as GP has said in follow-up comments) that it's a safe space for the child and the parent has the capacity in that moment to hold emotional space for the child. I would even argue that although the tantrum is obnoxious, the part of the tantrum where the parent says "yes, it's good to express and vent your anger"--even more so for a girl in a world where girls are told not to show anger--is downright healthy. The part that's totally unacceptable, in my opinion, is the idea that the anger will get her the ice cream. But if you say "not only will you not get this ice cream, but also you're not allowed to throw a tantrum ever because it's wrong," that kid will more likely than not internalize a certain amount of shame for her actions, and next time she wants to express anger she will feel ashamed about it. Which sucks, because that stuff, built up over time, will stick with you well into adulthood. Hence the therapist :-).

methodover 9y ago

I think she might mean it's not wrong in the sense of "deeply immoral." Murderer is wrong. Physical abuse is wrong. Many things are deeply and intrinsically immoral. Tantrums aren't. They're unacceptable but they aren't immoral. At least not before a certain age.

dingaling 9y ago

As a parent I strongly agree with you. A tantrum indicates lack of emotional control and a lack of respect for other people in the area, both from the child and the parent. It's OK to be angry. It's not OK to let that anger take over physically once a child has more emotional maturity than a baby. For those who permit their children to behave like that, what will be the cut-off age when they have to stop? 12, 16, 18? Or 32 and throwing a tantrum in a workplace?

icebraining 9y ago
If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it. I doubt tantrums really are anger taking over, they're just an attempt at emotional manipulation of others, and they persist only if they get a positive response. Some kids do lose emotional control - a close (minor) family member had that problem, probably due to difficult childhood moments - but in that case they need help in handling it, not punishment. These are just my personal views; I'm certainly not an expert.
- loco5niner 9y ago
  > If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it. The point is that children need to LEARN to control themselves, emotional or otherwise.

anon-20171203A 9y ago

I see it differently. A Zoo is a safe place for parenting and learning. If you feel disrespected by mere glancing on a child having a temper tantrum in a Zoo, then you and I simply aren't going to agree on much. I'm certainly not going to escalate a situation with my daughter to physical confrontation so that you might feel more comfortable.

3pt14159 9y ago
Based on what you wrote, you're almost certainly a great parent, but I have a question: If your daughter learned by observing the boy using a tantrum to get his way, couldn't there be other children who observed both the boy and your daughter, see that a tantrum at the very worst amounts to a 50% chance of ice cream and a 50% chance of continuing the zoo trip? If you had told her: "When you're done, let me know. And if this goes on much longer we're going home once you're done." The other children may have observed possible negative consequences for their actions.
- anon-20171203A 9y ago
  Thanks for the complement. To answer the question, I try not to escalate the situation or change the message while adrenaline is high. That said, after the tantrum was over and the crowd had dispersed, my daughter and I stayed and discussed the situation (and consequences). One mother and her 3 year old boy lingered, eventually joining in. Her young boy was very assured that he would never, ever have such a tantrum like that! I told him I was so relieved, especially because of hidden dangers like stinky horse urine puddles.
  - 3pt14159 9y ago
    I think that is great! Thanks for the reply, I hope I remember this message if I ever have children.
Splines 9y ago
There's two parts here: a.) What would I do, as the parent, if my child were to throw a tantrum, and b.) How would I react, as a parent, to another child throwing a tantrum. For A: As stated, I would leave immediately. I'll hedge that a bit and say that getting to the point where a child is rolling around on the ground is a failure for everyone concerned, so ideally we'd never reach this point in the first place. If there's a disagreement, my kids and I can talk it out without resorting to a tantrum. For B: I don't care what you do with your kids. In public at a zoo in an open area, have at it. It's a tough situation all around and I'm not going to make another parent's day worse by saying anything.

earksiinni 9y ago

I think that we may be talking past each other. I'm distinguishing between something being "wrong" vs. something being "acceptable." Wrongness to me is a moral attribute; whether something is acceptable is a purely subjective and individual quality. Maybe the tantrum is unacceptable to us and to nearly every other adult in human society, but it's still subjective. I think that parents absolutely should show with their actions and words whether something is acceptable _to them_ and give advice about what will be acceptable to others (they will learn soon enough anyway). That's what GP did by showing that throwing a tantrum was an unacceptable way to get ice cream. The key part is that he didn't then go on to say/communicate "and what you're doing is wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself," or something to that effect. The exact words don't matter, kids internalize shame very easily: if you think it's wrong or shameful, then they will get the point. It will be effective at preventing the behavior in the future, but damn, shame is like the nuclear option in my opinion when it comes to parenting. Obviously there's a healthy amount of shame that we should all have for things that are genuinely shameful. But is there really anything shameful or wrong about a lack of emotional control? The child is a child, they don't know any better. So the question is what is unacceptable? I would argue that the tantrum itself is totally acceptable, assuming (as GP has said in follow-up comments) that it's a safe space for the child and the parent has the capacity in that moment to hold emotional space for the child. I would even argue that although the tantrum is obnoxious, the part of the tantrum where the parent says "yes, it's good to express and vent your anger"--even more so for a girl in a world where girls are told not to show anger--is downright healthy. The part that's totally unacceptable, in my opinion, is the idea that the anger will get her the ice cream. But if you say "not only will you not get this ice cream, but also you're not allowed to throw a tantrum ever because it's wrong," that kid will more likely than not internalize a certain amount of shame for her actions, and next time she wants to express anger she will feel ashamed about it. Which sucks, because that stuff, built up over time, will stick with you well into adulthood. Hence the therapist :-).