3 ms·

>There are only 85000 H1B Visas allowed each year. 85,000 NEW H1Bs are issued each year, they last 3 years and can be extended for another 3. So right off the

>There are only 85000 H1B Visas allowed each year. 85,000 NEW H1Bs are issued each year, they last 3 years and can be extended for another 3. So right off the bat that's as many as half a million. There is no issue limit on H1Bs for universities and non-profits. In 2012 alone, for example, the total number of H1Bs (normal + university/non-profit) issued was 135,530. It's safe to say there are far more than 85,000 H1Bs in the US. >because they can't find enough people at any price who are willing to do farm work since the crackdown. I suspect their definition of "any price" is very different than mine.

scarface74 9y ago
At any price that they could still harvest the food and sell it at a price that people would be willing to buy the food.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I suspect the consumers will get over it once hunger sets in. I'm not really sympathetic to the consumers who may lose access to artificially low pricing subsidized by policies intending to keep wages low amongst the poorest people in our country.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    Poor people already often can't afford healthy food. What do you think happens when food prices go up because farmers have to pay 5x as much to attract labor? Yes there are farmers who are offering five times as much and still can't find reliable labor. On the other hand, I'm sure overprocessed sodium filled food and fast food will become a lot more attractive than even what it is today.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      >Poor people already often can't afford healthy food. That's a serious problem, if only there was some way to raise their wages. >farmers have to pay 5x as much to attract labor Yep, there it is. Some of those poor people will transition to these new higher wages in farming. This will reduce labor supply in other sectors which will push wages up across the board. Rinse and repeat for other industries full of illegal immigrants: construction, maid services, etc.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        That's not what's happening. Americans have alternatives to hard manual labor - welfare, "disability", food stamps etc. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/?utm_term=.402f6c0c77bf https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north...
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        If welfare and food stamps are better than performing farm labor then farm wages and working conditions clearly haven't improved enough yet. I accept your data/claims at face value, that illegal immigration and temporary worker visas have suppressed wages of the poor in some sectors so much that even increasing the wage 5x is insufficient to attract native laborers. What we disagree on is whether or not that wage suppression is a good thing.
        scarface74 9y ago
        If welfare and food stamps are better than performing farm labor then farm wages and working conditions clearly haven't improved enough yet. It's farm labor - how much can working conditions improve while you are actually doing your job? If I had a choice between making minimum wage and getting government assistance and doing back breaking labor at $20 an hour, I'm not sure that I wouldn't take the minimum wage job and make the commensurate lifestyle choices - roommates, public transportation instead of a car, or if I were so inclined being a part of the underground economy. How many unemployed people are physically capable of doing that kind of work?
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        I can't speak to farming, but I know the going day labor rate, usually construction, for random (illegal) immigrants you can pick up at Home Depot is $20/hr minimum around here. So you'll certainly have to do better than that to get natives. Again, if $20/hr isn't enough, the market will adjust until it is enough. Who cares whether unemployed people are capable of hard physical labor? Plenty of people in the country are capable, so farm wages will just have to compete against other sectors. And when it does, it will raise the wages of EVERYONE in those other sectors because people will leave for the higher wage farm work. This is the mechanism I keep bringing you back to about how it helps all the poor, not just the ones who take the farm labor jobs.

scarface74 9y ago

At any price that they could still harvest the food and sell it at a price that people would be willing to buy the food.

Consultant32452 9y ago
I suspect the consumers will get over it once hunger sets in. I'm not really sympathetic to the consumers who may lose access to artificially low pricing subsidized by policies intending to keep wages low amongst the poorest people in our country.
- scarface74 9y ago
  Poor people already often can't afford healthy food. What do you think happens when food prices go up because farmers have to pay 5x as much to attract labor? Yes there are farmers who are offering five times as much and still can't find reliable labor. On the other hand, I'm sure overprocessed sodium filled food and fast food will become a lot more attractive than even what it is today.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    >Poor people already often can't afford healthy food. That's a serious problem, if only there was some way to raise their wages. >farmers have to pay 5x as much to attract labor Yep, there it is. Some of those poor people will transition to these new higher wages in farming. This will reduce labor supply in other sectors which will push wages up across the board. Rinse and repeat for other industries full of illegal immigrants: construction, maid services, etc.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      That's not what's happening. Americans have alternatives to hard manual labor - welfare, "disability", food stamps etc. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/?utm_term=.402f6c0c77bf https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north...
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        If welfare and food stamps are better than performing farm labor then farm wages and working conditions clearly haven't improved enough yet. I accept your data/claims at face value, that illegal immigration and temporary worker visas have suppressed wages of the poor in some sectors so much that even increasing the wage 5x is insufficient to attract native laborers. What we disagree on is whether or not that wage suppression is a good thing.
        scarface74 9y ago
        If welfare and food stamps are better than performing farm labor then farm wages and working conditions clearly haven't improved enough yet. It's farm labor - how much can working conditions improve while you are actually doing your job? If I had a choice between making minimum wage and getting government assistance and doing back breaking labor at $20 an hour, I'm not sure that I wouldn't take the minimum wage job and make the commensurate lifestyle choices - roommates, public transportation instead of a car, or if I were so inclined being a part of the underground economy. How many unemployed people are physically capable of doing that kind of work?
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        I can't speak to farming, but I know the going day labor rate, usually construction, for random (illegal) immigrants you can pick up at Home Depot is $20/hr minimum around here. So you'll certainly have to do better than that to get natives. Again, if $20/hr isn't enough, the market will adjust until it is enough. Who cares whether unemployed people are capable of hard physical labor? Plenty of people in the country are capable, so farm wages will just have to compete against other sectors. And when it does, it will raise the wages of EVERYONE in those other sectors because people will leave for the higher wage farm work. This is the mechanism I keep bringing you back to about how it helps all the poor, not just the ones who take the farm labor jobs.