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Just a heads up: The numbers for Germany on that page include all social security contributions, including health insurance (4.7k€) and pension contributions (6

Just a heads up: The numbers for Germany on that page include all social security contributions, including health insurance (4.7k€) and pension contributions (6k€). (Not sure if you accounted for these in your number for Maryland.)

azinman2 9y ago
Not to mention high quality education through university.
- killercup 9y ago
  Yeah, that's something I always forget about when talking to people from the US: I don't have any student loans. A semester at a university in Germany costs around 250€ (plus housing and food), so it's hard to get to a point where you need 10 years to pack back loans. I had a part time job all through university and even saved up a reasonable amount of money.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    There is really no reason for an American to have a unaffordable student loan. They could easily go to a state school instead of a private college and save thousands.
    - abalashov 9y ago
      I don't know that it's quite that simple; for one, tuition dominates college cost discussions while actual costs consist in large part of living expenses, i.e. room, board, food, misc. Second, there are some impressively expensive state schools out there, and not all have especially affordable in-state tuition, particularly not to those of working class background. Still, I agree with the general idea you're reaching for. The ostensible premium of elite private schools isn't worth going into crippling debt for in most cases I can envisage.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        How many college students have to stay on campus? How many could go to two year college, stay at home and then transfer two years later? I went to a small state college with a horrible computer science department. Four years out of college I was making just as much as people who had way more debt than I had (I.e. none)
        nunez 9y ago
        Most people who go to a CC with the intent of transferring to a larger school don’t do it. Too many distractions get in the way.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Isn't better for distractions to get in their way while they are at community colleges and not out of as much money than for the same distractions to get in their way at a more expensive school and either way not come out with a degree? I didn't go to a community college but I did go to a cheap state school with the intention of transferring to GA Tech under a 3 + 2 program - I was accepted straight out of high school but I got a scholarship to go to the no name school. When it was time to make a decision, I felt GT was a waste of time for me. I didn't want to be a "computer engineer" I wanted to develop software. I don't see my career trajectory being any different. No one cared what school I graduated from three years after I started working.
        abalashov 9y ago
        Well, indeed, and I followed a similar career path to you. I was a philosophy major at UGA, and by the time I was 20 I was the senior technical personality at a small local ISP and interested in VoIP. I had been working nearly full time since my second semester. By the time my sophomore year began, work had rapidly evolved to take up 98% of my time and attention. I technically lingered into the first part of my junior year, but by that point long a very token and symbolic presence in class. The next step up from there was going to be a move to Atlanta and a big-boy corporate job, so I took it. However, you can't just extrapolate from these experiences to everyone going to college across the entire work force. Our field is a bit uniquely ... democratic.
    - nunez 9y ago
      That’s not the full equation. There are a lot of jobs out there that you straight up cannot get out of college without going somewhere “prestigious.” That translates into YEARS worth of lost income and a completely different/lower earning career trajectory. Yes, some folks manage to get into FAANG out of state school, but that isn’t the norm. It’s damn near impossible to get into investment banking or management consulting straight out of college from a state school, for example. I got into $200k worth of undergrad student loans. I am still paying them back and probably could have done things to reduce that burden early on. Regardless, I don’t regret it for a second because I’ll be done paying for them in about three years, and I’ll keep the high income job and great network I’ve accumulated in the process.
      - Tiksi 9y ago
        I mean, isn't that the only equation? If your income covers it, by definition not unaffordable. But there's people who get degrees that don't give a surefire way to pay back the tuition who go to those schools too.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      In-state tuition at the University of Illinois is $31,000 per year.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        I just looked on the website - it's $17100 a year (for engineering). But how much is a two year state school? That would save some money at least for the first two years before transferring. GA Tech is $12,500 if you don't stay on campus for a GA resident. If you meet the HOPE scholarship requirements (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship), it will pay 90% of the tuition costs - not including books and fees - reducing that cost by about $9000 a year. If you don't have the qualifications for Hope, more than likely you wouldn't be admitted into GT anyway. Yes the ethics of using the lottery to fund education is unclear and no it doesn't apply to every state, but is the University of Illionois worth it unless you are qualified for a high paying job to make the expense worth it (serious question - I don't know)? If not, are their cheaper state schools?
        tptacek 9y ago
        I have a kid there; my number comes from the actual invoices.
    - pm90 9y ago
      I don't understand why this comment is downvoted. There are many many inexpensive state/community colleges that have pretty affordable programs which would probably provide the same level of education. If one is hell-bent on getting a degree from a better Uni, you can always apply and transfer later. This option should most certainly be made clearer to students. I don't want to play a blame game, but I think its somewhat related to the culture of parents wanting "the best" for their kids and considering all money spent on education as an "investment". Its not. Its a huge financial commitment and should be thought through carefully. Now, its not like college is completely useless. The connections you form there last for life. Many founders initially met in college and so on. But someone considering taking on ginormous student loan debt probably should consider whether that is worth paying off loans for decades.
    - bfuller 9y ago
      State schools are still ridiculously expensive
  - libertyEQ 9y ago
    Does everybody in Germany get to go to college for for 250€ ?
    - uoaei 9y ago
      If you're accepted, you only pay "administrative fees" per semester. Covering textbooks, food, housing are on you though there are numerous stipends you can apply for and get. This applies not just to German citizens but to anyone who studies in Germany. The stipend sources may be slightly different where you come from though.
      - libertyEQ 9y ago
        The answer to my question is "no." The problem is that most people in the US that "know" Germany gives everyone a college edu, thinks it is literally everyone and it certainly is not the case. Could people from Germany please stop spreading partial truths?
- rayiner 9y ago
  They pay for those benefits by heavily taxing the middle class. If someone proposed a tax bill that cut corporate tax rates, held the line on taxes on incomes over $250,000, dramatically jacked up taxes on people making $50,000-$250,000, and instituted a 25% sales tax, to pay for free/cheap education and healthcare, they'd be shot.
rayiner 9y ago
The Maryland number includes social security, but not health insurance. Health insurance is hard to account for, because most people in the $100,000 get employer-provided health benefits on top of salary, which are tax-free. But I'm also excluding a bunch of itemized deductions (mortgage interest, etc.) that don't exist in Germany that are widely used in that income bracket in the U.S.
vostok 9y ago
As an American, I incur the below costs: * $18,000/year 401k contribution (similar to pension, but I take on the market risk) * $5,500/year IRA contribution (similar to pension, but I take on the market risk) * $200,000 total in tuition per child at my alma mater. * Health insurance costs. This can easily be $12,000/year or more for a family. None of these are included in the tax amounts that we pay. This is also not considering that German cities are much cheaper than equivalently walkable American cities.
- rayiner 9y ago
  German social security is roughly similar to ours. So if you want to live comfortably in retirement, you have to put extra money away there too. As for health insurance: employers cover on average 71% of insurance premiums for families; at the $100k mark, it's probably significantly higher than that. Finally, as for tuition--you get cheap tuition in Germany because: (1) people making 30,000 Euros are getting taxed a lot more to pay for it; and (2) most kids get tracked out of college and sent to apprenticeship at 16. If we taxed our middle class what Germany taxes its middle class, we could afford cheap tuition too (for the 1/4 of our kids we chose to send to college).
  - Tiksi 9y ago
    > If we taxed our middle class what Germany taxes its middle class, we could afford cheap tuition too. While I'm in favor of free/cheap education, this made me think of a convincing argument for the student loan / US system. Those who benefit from the education are "taxed" for it in the form of loan payments for a few years, those who don't benefit (directly) from the education are not. I guess ideally you could balance the benefit to society vs the benefit to the individual getting the education and subsidize it proportionally. But that's obviously not practical so we should probably push closer to the society end of the margin of error.
    - vostok 9y ago
      I agree that it's not so simple. > Those who benefit from the education are "taxed" for it in the form of loan payments for a few years, those who don't benefit (directly) from the education are not. Not only that, but the benefits of free/cheap education largely accrue to the middle and upper classes whereas the lower class also has significantly higher taxes under the European system. I'm most familiar with the UK where universities like Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, etc. are all overwhelmingly middle class. I'm sure the pattern is repeated in Europe as well.

azinman2 9y ago

Not to mention high quality education through university.

killercup 9y ago
Yeah, that's something I always forget about when talking to people from the US: I don't have any student loans. A semester at a university in Germany costs around 250€ (plus housing and food), so it's hard to get to a point where you need 10 years to pack back loans. I had a part time job all through university and even saved up a reasonable amount of money.
- scarface74 9y ago
  There is really no reason for an American to have a unaffordable student loan. They could easily go to a state school instead of a private college and save thousands.
  - abalashov 9y ago
    I don't know that it's quite that simple; for one, tuition dominates college cost discussions while actual costs consist in large part of living expenses, i.e. room, board, food, misc. Second, there are some impressively expensive state schools out there, and not all have especially affordable in-state tuition, particularly not to those of working class background. Still, I agree with the general idea you're reaching for. The ostensible premium of elite private schools isn't worth going into crippling debt for in most cases I can envisage.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      How many college students have to stay on campus? How many could go to two year college, stay at home and then transfer two years later? I went to a small state college with a horrible computer science department. Four years out of college I was making just as much as people who had way more debt than I had (I.e. none)
      - nunez 9y ago
        Most people who go to a CC with the intent of transferring to a larger school don’t do it. Too many distractions get in the way.
        scarface74 9y ago
        Isn't better for distractions to get in their way while they are at community colleges and not out of as much money than for the same distractions to get in their way at a more expensive school and either way not come out with a degree? I didn't go to a community college but I did go to a cheap state school with the intention of transferring to GA Tech under a 3 + 2 program - I was accepted straight out of high school but I got a scholarship to go to the no name school. When it was time to make a decision, I felt GT was a waste of time for me. I didn't want to be a "computer engineer" I wanted to develop software. I don't see my career trajectory being any different. No one cared what school I graduated from three years after I started working.
        abalashov 9y ago
        Well, indeed, and I followed a similar career path to you. I was a philosophy major at UGA, and by the time I was 20 I was the senior technical personality at a small local ISP and interested in VoIP. I had been working nearly full time since my second semester. By the time my sophomore year began, work had rapidly evolved to take up 98% of my time and attention. I technically lingered into the first part of my junior year, but by that point long a very token and symbolic presence in class. The next step up from there was going to be a move to Atlanta and a big-boy corporate job, so I took it. However, you can't just extrapolate from these experiences to everyone going to college across the entire work force. Our field is a bit uniquely ... democratic.
  - nunez 9y ago
    That’s not the full equation. There are a lot of jobs out there that you straight up cannot get out of college without going somewhere “prestigious.” That translates into YEARS worth of lost income and a completely different/lower earning career trajectory. Yes, some folks manage to get into FAANG out of state school, but that isn’t the norm. It’s damn near impossible to get into investment banking or management consulting straight out of college from a state school, for example. I got into $200k worth of undergrad student loans. I am still paying them back and probably could have done things to reduce that burden early on. Regardless, I don’t regret it for a second because I’ll be done paying for them in about three years, and I’ll keep the high income job and great network I’ve accumulated in the process.
    - Tiksi 9y ago
      I mean, isn't that the only equation? If your income covers it, by definition not unaffordable. But there's people who get degrees that don't give a surefire way to pay back the tuition who go to those schools too.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    In-state tuition at the University of Illinois is $31,000 per year.
    - scarface74 9y ago
      I just looked on the website - it's $17100 a year (for engineering). But how much is a two year state school? That would save some money at least for the first two years before transferring. GA Tech is $12,500 if you don't stay on campus for a GA resident. If you meet the HOPE scholarship requirements (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE_Scholarship), it will pay 90% of the tuition costs - not including books and fees - reducing that cost by about $9000 a year. If you don't have the qualifications for Hope, more than likely you wouldn't be admitted into GT anyway. Yes the ethics of using the lottery to fund education is unclear and no it doesn't apply to every state, but is the University of Illionois worth it unless you are qualified for a high paying job to make the expense worth it (serious question - I don't know)? If not, are their cheaper state schools?
      - tptacek 9y ago
        I have a kid there; my number comes from the actual invoices.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I don't understand why this comment is downvoted. There are many many inexpensive state/community colleges that have pretty affordable programs which would probably provide the same level of education. If one is hell-bent on getting a degree from a better Uni, you can always apply and transfer later. This option should most certainly be made clearer to students. I don't want to play a blame game, but I think its somewhat related to the culture of parents wanting "the best" for their kids and considering all money spent on education as an "investment". Its not. Its a huge financial commitment and should be thought through carefully. Now, its not like college is completely useless. The connections you form there last for life. Many founders initially met in college and so on. But someone considering taking on ginormous student loan debt probably should consider whether that is worth paying off loans for decades.
  - bfuller 9y ago
    State schools are still ridiculously expensive
- libertyEQ 9y ago
  Does everybody in Germany get to go to college for for 250€ ?
  - uoaei 9y ago
    If you're accepted, you only pay "administrative fees" per semester. Covering textbooks, food, housing are on you though there are numerous stipends you can apply for and get. This applies not just to German citizens but to anyone who studies in Germany. The stipend sources may be slightly different where you come from though.
    - libertyEQ 9y ago
      The answer to my question is "no." The problem is that most people in the US that "know" Germany gives everyone a college edu, thinks it is literally everyone and it certainly is not the case. Could people from Germany please stop spreading partial truths?
rayiner 9y ago
They pay for those benefits by heavily taxing the middle class. If someone proposed a tax bill that cut corporate tax rates, held the line on taxes on incomes over $250,000, dramatically jacked up taxes on people making $50,000-$250,000, and instituted a 25% sales tax, to pay for free/cheap education and healthcare, they'd be shot.

rayiner 9y ago

The Maryland number includes social security, but not health insurance. Health insurance is hard to account for, because most people in the $100,000 get employer-provided health benefits on top of salary, which are tax-free. But I'm also excluding a bunch of itemized deductions (mortgage interest, etc.) that don't exist in Germany that are widely used in that income bracket in the U.S.

vostok 9y ago

As an American, I incur the below costs: * $18,000/year 401k contribution (similar to pension, but I take on the market risk) * $5,500/year IRA contribution (similar to pension, but I take on the market risk) * $200,000 total in tuition per child at my alma mater. * Health insurance costs. This can easily be $12,000/year or more for a family. None of these are included in the tax amounts that we pay. This is also not considering that German cities are much cheaper than equivalently walkable American cities.

rayiner 9y ago
German social security is roughly similar to ours. So if you want to live comfortably in retirement, you have to put extra money away there too. As for health insurance: employers cover on average 71% of insurance premiums for families; at the $100k mark, it's probably significantly higher than that. Finally, as for tuition--you get cheap tuition in Germany because: (1) people making 30,000 Euros are getting taxed a lot more to pay for it; and (2) most kids get tracked out of college and sent to apprenticeship at 16. If we taxed our middle class what Germany taxes its middle class, we could afford cheap tuition too (for the 1/4 of our kids we chose to send to college).
- Tiksi 9y ago
  > If we taxed our middle class what Germany taxes its middle class, we could afford cheap tuition too. While I'm in favor of free/cheap education, this made me think of a convincing argument for the student loan / US system. Those who benefit from the education are "taxed" for it in the form of loan payments for a few years, those who don't benefit (directly) from the education are not. I guess ideally you could balance the benefit to society vs the benefit to the individual getting the education and subsidize it proportionally. But that's obviously not practical so we should probably push closer to the society end of the margin of error.
  - vostok 9y ago
    I agree that it's not so simple. > Those who benefit from the education are "taxed" for it in the form of loan payments for a few years, those who don't benefit (directly) from the education are not. Not only that, but the benefits of free/cheap education largely accrue to the middle and upper classes whereas the lower class also has significantly higher taxes under the European system. I'm most familiar with the UK where universities like Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, etc. are all overwhelmingly middle class. I'm sure the pattern is repeated in Europe as well.