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I like this idea but let's take it to the limit. Very young children (<2 say) aren't reasoning or reasonable creatures in the usual way we might expect of adult

by zxcmx 9y ago

I like this idea but let's take it to the limit. Very young children (<2 say) aren't reasoning or reasonable creatures in the usual way we might expect of adults. They are very scientific (aka will try all the things and are surprisingly astute and pragmatic about learning what works) but they do not have a broader perspective on the world. "Rules" like "time to go to sleep" and "I'll stop you running onto the road" are not negotiable in any meaningful sense. Other rules for older children can often be viewed as extensions of this. Mistakes are not free. Some rules are OK.

SCAQTony 9y ago
Very well said. Even at 9 and 10, or arguably up to 18-years-old many rules are non-negotiable.
- tfha 9y ago
  My experience is that by 13 years old a person has enough cognitive ability to understand and negotiate any rule. They lack the experience to negotiate every rule, but any individual thing they pick, from sex to drugs to skipping school, can be understood deep enough for them to set their own terms safely if they aren't happy with the default.
Latty 9y ago
Clearly it is a process - the point the article is making isn't that rules shouldn't exist, rather that any rule should just be a conclusion being explained to the child. i.e: The answer to "why" should never be "because I said so". I get that many kids will just ask why infinitely, and lots of parents say that because they are fed up and know the child isn't taking on board the answer, but I'd recommend instead insisting on a specific question - when they ask "why", ask "what don't you understand?" or drill down. This has the advantage of potentially catching a real miscommunication where the child doesn't understand something but truly is trying to work it out, and tends to remove an easy annoyance of the "why" forever. If the child isn't old enough to understand that cooker == hot and hot + hand == pain, clearly you have to stop them touching the cooker, but that's not mutually exclusive with helping them understand why, if possible. I remember my parents teaching me not to put my fingers in the door frame when it was open by putting a carrot through and letting me close the door, slicing the carrot in half. I wasn't afraid of punishment or following a rule - I understood why I shouldn't do it, so I didn't.
- matt_the_bass 9y ago
  The carrot example is a great example. I think I’ll try it. Thanks! My only fear is that I’ll just teach them a new way to chop carrots :)
  - Latty 9y ago
    Obviously some things are not easy to make so visceral and easy to understand, but that one is indeed a great one. It stuck with me well.
- somethingsimple 9y ago
  Pretty much this. A personal anecdote: a few months ago we realized our daughter was waking up very tired in the morning, so we figured she wasn't getting enough sleep. When we told her that bedtime was moving earlier, her initial reaction was to get very upset and ask why. Instead of saying "because we've said so" (like I know a lot of parents do), we calmly explained how it's important for humans to get adequate amounts of sleep, and that at her age she should be getting X hours of sleep at night (and we showed her the math matching the new bed time with the time she has to wake up for school). The explanation made perfect sense to her, and she's so into the new routine that we don't even have to tell her it's time to go to bed most nights.
  - Latty 9y ago
    This is it. It's definitely hard because teaching is not easy. It takes time to explain things to kids and it can be hard to tell what they are taking on board and when they are just asking questions because they can and not really caring (although making it a dialogue by asking questions back about what they want to know can help a lot). It definitely pays off a lot though, and I remember being a child and the frustration I felt when I didn't understand and rules felt arbitrary. I wouldn't wish that on any child.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    May I ask how old your daughter was at the time?
brutus1213 9y ago
Parent of a two year old. Totally agreed. Nap time and safety issues are when we lose our cool :(

by zxcmx 9y ago

SCAQTony 9y ago

Very well said. Even at 9 and 10, or arguably up to 18-years-old many rules are non-negotiable.

tfha 9y ago
My experience is that by 13 years old a person has enough cognitive ability to understand and negotiate any rule. They lack the experience to negotiate every rule, but any individual thing they pick, from sex to drugs to skipping school, can be understood deep enough for them to set their own terms safely if they aren't happy with the default.

Latty 9y ago

Clearly it is a process - the point the article is making isn't that rules shouldn't exist, rather that any rule should just be a conclusion being explained to the child. i.e: The answer to "why" should never be "because I said so". I get that many kids will just ask why infinitely, and lots of parents say that because they are fed up and know the child isn't taking on board the answer, but I'd recommend instead insisting on a specific question - when they ask "why", ask "what don't you understand?" or drill down. This has the advantage of potentially catching a real miscommunication where the child doesn't understand something but truly is trying to work it out, and tends to remove an easy annoyance of the "why" forever. If the child isn't old enough to understand that cooker == hot and hot + hand == pain, clearly you have to stop them touching the cooker, but that's not mutually exclusive with helping them understand why, if possible. I remember my parents teaching me not to put my fingers in the door frame when it was open by putting a carrot through and letting me close the door, slicing the carrot in half. I wasn't afraid of punishment or following a rule - I understood why I shouldn't do it, so I didn't.

matt_the_bass 9y ago
The carrot example is a great example. I think I’ll try it. Thanks! My only fear is that I’ll just teach them a new way to chop carrots :)
- Latty 9y ago
  Obviously some things are not easy to make so visceral and easy to understand, but that one is indeed a great one. It stuck with me well.
somethingsimple 9y ago
Pretty much this. A personal anecdote: a few months ago we realized our daughter was waking up very tired in the morning, so we figured she wasn't getting enough sleep. When we told her that bedtime was moving earlier, her initial reaction was to get very upset and ask why. Instead of saying "because we've said so" (like I know a lot of parents do), we calmly explained how it's important for humans to get adequate amounts of sleep, and that at her age she should be getting X hours of sleep at night (and we showed her the math matching the new bed time with the time she has to wake up for school). The explanation made perfect sense to her, and she's so into the new routine that we don't even have to tell her it's time to go to bed most nights.
- Latty 9y ago
  This is it. It's definitely hard because teaching is not easy. It takes time to explain things to kids and it can be hard to tell what they are taking on board and when they are just asking questions because they can and not really caring (although making it a dialogue by asking questions back about what they want to know can help a lot). It definitely pays off a lot though, and I remember being a child and the frustration I felt when I didn't understand and rules felt arbitrary. I wouldn't wish that on any child.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  May I ask how old your daughter was at the time?

brutus1213 9y ago

Parent of a two year old. Totally agreed. Nap time and safety issues are when we lose our cool :(