4 ms·

What are you claiming now? Are you claiming Mozilla was the tool of Google, switched to being the tool of Microsoft or Yahoo, and then back to being the tool o

by roca 9y ago

What are you claiming now? Are you claiming Mozilla was the tool of Google, switched to being the tool of Microsoft or Yahoo, and then back to being the tool of Google? Or are you claiming that Mozilla is the tool of the "search industry" which is some amorphous group containing all of the above? Google (and other companies in some countries) pay Mozilla to be the default search in Firefox. It's a business transaction and adequately explains why Mozilla gets paid. Conspiracy-theorizing claims that secret terms bind Mozilla to some hidden agenda should not be believed in the absence of evidence, and I haven't seen any. (And I'm a former Mozilla Distinguished Engineer.)

jstewartmobile 9y ago
It is super, super simple. When 80%+ of your revenue depends on a search engine, and you still have payroll to make, you are by definition dependent upon it, regardless of which one it happens to be at the time. The article title is "Maintaining an Independent Browser is Expensive". I'm just calling it out. From the tone of the replies, kicked off by a guy in the analytics industry who went so far as to google me for a comment, Upton Sinclair is screaming from the grave: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" edit: And granted, they can currently play Google against Bing, although that isn't a terribly impressive degree of freedom. edit edit: And where did the word "secret" enter into the conversation? It's like you depend on a search engine (or a batch of them during your break from Google) for most of your revenue, and I'm the one who has to prove that you're not influenced by that???
- roca 9y ago
  I left Mozilla nearly two years ago so you can lay off the baseless speculations about my salary, thanks. Incidentally I explicitly defined "independent" in my blog post: "I mean a browser with its own implementation of HTML, CSS, JS, etc". Choosing an alternative definition and then ranting about it is irrelevant to what I wrote.
  - jstewartmobile 9y ago
    I'm sorry. That's not how this works. dependent *adj* 1. free from outside control; not depending on another's authority. 2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence. It is not disputed that they have made their contribution to the implementation babel of web "standards". It is disputed, right here, that they are more of a spoke in the wheels of online advertising than a heroic champion of the open web.
- roca 9y ago
  Also you didn't answer my questions. Please spell out exactly who you think is influencing Mozilla, and to do what (that Mozilla wouldn't normally do for the sake of their mission). And please support your claims with evidence. ("X pays $Y to Mozilla" is already adequately explained by the fact that Firefox-generated search traffic is valuable to X.)
- scrollaway 9y ago
  > From the tone of the replies, kicked off by a guy in the analytics industry who went so far as to google me for a comment, Upton Sinclair is screaming from the grave Good lord, get a hold of yourself. I work in the gaming industry (easy mistake to make, right?) and you seem to have read "hints" as "hits" and made up a whole scenario from that... I didn't Google you (nor would I care to), I just called out a completely bullshit comment when I saw one. The foundation of your entire argument is loose accusations, outdated information cobbled together in a web of random words and quotes you found appropriate. You have incorrectly profiled everyone who replied to you. It is hard for anyone here to have an argument with you, or even take you seriously.
  - jstewartmobile 9y ago
    You butchered my original comment to a point where I could only assume malice. As for "hints", my bad. In 2017 they're going back to the 800lb gorilla of search and browsers for the bulk of their operating revenue, and I'm supposed to just accept that as "independence" and back off? There is a disconnect here that I'm obviously not going to bridge, so fine, they're independent! Go write their non-profit-for-profit chimera a check and "take back the web".
    - scrollaway 9y ago
      The bulk of Mozilla's revenue through 2019 is most likely going to come from Verizon. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/14/mozilla-terminates-its-deal-with-yahoo-and-makes-google-the-default-in-firefox-again/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/14/mozilla-terminates-its-dea... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-21/verizon-is-said-to-be-on-the-hook-for-mayer-s-yahoo-search-deal https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-21/verizon-i... I'm not aware of a renewal of the Google financial partnership. Feel free to correct me if you find information that goes beyond 2011. There certainly could be a new deal with Google there but Mozilla is not in the negociating position it once was, so there just as well could not; and seeing as I'm finding zero info about it, I'm leaning towards "there isn't". But hey, I guess if they don't make a billion dollars a year through donations and take in zero outside revenue, they're not independent.

by roca 9y ago

jstewartmobile 9y ago

It is super, super simple. When 80%+ of your revenue depends on a search engine, and you still have payroll to make, you are by definition dependent upon it, regardless of which one it happens to be at the time. The article title is "Maintaining an Independent Browser is Expensive". I'm just calling it out. From the tone of the replies, kicked off by a guy in the analytics industry who went so far as to google me for a comment, Upton Sinclair is screaming from the grave: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" edit: And granted, they can currently play Google against Bing, although that isn't a terribly impressive degree of freedom. edit edit: And where did the word "secret" enter into the conversation? It's like you depend on a search engine (or a batch of them during your break from Google) for most of your revenue, and I'm the one who has to prove that you're not influenced by that???

roca 9y ago
I left Mozilla nearly two years ago so you can lay off the baseless speculations about my salary, thanks. Incidentally I explicitly defined "independent" in my blog post: "I mean a browser with its own implementation of HTML, CSS, JS, etc". Choosing an alternative definition and then ranting about it is irrelevant to what I wrote.
- jstewartmobile 9y ago
  I'm sorry. That's not how this works. dependent *adj* 1. free from outside control; not depending on another's authority. 2. not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence. It is not disputed that they have made their contribution to the implementation babel of web "standards". It is disputed, right here, that they are more of a spoke in the wheels of online advertising than a heroic champion of the open web.
roca 9y ago
Also you didn't answer my questions. Please spell out exactly who you think is influencing Mozilla, and to do what (that Mozilla wouldn't normally do for the sake of their mission). And please support your claims with evidence. ("X pays $Y to Mozilla" is already adequately explained by the fact that Firefox-generated search traffic is valuable to X.)
scrollaway 9y ago
> From the tone of the replies, kicked off by a guy in the analytics industry who went so far as to google me for a comment, Upton Sinclair is screaming from the grave Good lord, get a hold of yourself. I work in the gaming industry (easy mistake to make, right?) and you seem to have read "hints" as "hits" and made up a whole scenario from that... I didn't Google you (nor would I care to), I just called out a completely bullshit comment when I saw one. The foundation of your entire argument is loose accusations, outdated information cobbled together in a web of random words and quotes you found appropriate. You have incorrectly profiled everyone who replied to you. It is hard for anyone here to have an argument with you, or even take you seriously.
- jstewartmobile 9y ago
  You butchered my original comment to a point where I could only assume malice. As for "hints", my bad. In 2017 they're going back to the 800lb gorilla of search and browsers for the bulk of their operating revenue, and I'm supposed to just accept that as "independence" and back off? There is a disconnect here that I'm obviously not going to bridge, so fine, they're independent! Go write their non-profit-for-profit chimera a check and "take back the web".
  - scrollaway 9y ago
    The bulk of Mozilla's revenue through 2019 is most likely going to come from Verizon. https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/14/mozilla-terminates-its-deal-with-yahoo-and-makes-google-the-default-in-firefox-again/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/14/mozilla-terminates-its-dea... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-21/verizon-is-said-to-be-on-the-hook-for-mayer-s-yahoo-search-deal https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-21/verizon-i... I'm not aware of a renewal of the Google financial partnership. Feel free to correct me if you find information that goes beyond 2011. There certainly could be a new deal with Google there but Mozilla is not in the negociating position it once was, so there just as well could not; and seeing as I'm finding zero info about it, I'm leaning towards "there isn't". But hey, I guess if they don't make a billion dollars a year through donations and take in zero outside revenue, they're not independent.