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Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. I think most governments and taxes in the world today render "fair taxation" an oxymoron. It is a mess at all levels and should be fixed, but I'm not sure localized protests at places of business are the most effective way to go about doing it.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago
>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we've got a lot of Americans on HN. For us, that approach failed as of last night.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- linkmotif 9y ago
  > or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. They pay their lawful taxes. They engage in tax avoidance, not tax evasion.
- threeseed 9y ago
  1) Anyone who thinks this will affect Apple's bottom line is delusional. The negative effects of the publicity pales in comparison to the tax benefits. 2) Protesting your local politicians always works provided you have enough people. You're just not doing a good enough job convincing your fellow citizens. That's how you really effect change.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  I couldn’t care less about downvotes. Most of the time, they are indicative of disagreement more than anything else, and I come here for discussion, not glad-handing people for meaningless votes. Furthermore, the issue of tax law/enforcement isn’t going to be solved by whining at Apple. If you don’t like the laws that offer legal loopholes for large corporations to lessen their tax burden, your lawmakers are the ones you need to be protesting, not Apple.
  - StephenMelon 9y ago
    Actually, given that lawmakers are in effect captured by large corporations, and Apple are the largest of all, what they think about tax law actually really matters. Tim Cook has spoken out about cash repatriation several times and the debate seems to be about where the tax is paid. If a phone is sold in France, a corporation is making money from the French market, so given that that market has fixed infrastructure costs, shouldn’t actors in that market contribute to those costs through taxation?
    - innocentoldguy 9y ago
      France does receive tax on Apple’s business in the form of sales tax, VAT, property tax, corporate tax, etc., so I’m not sure what you’re insinuating here. Can you elaborate?
trgv 9y ago
Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.
- threeseed 9y ago
  People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ? It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.
  - Retra 9y ago
    The outcome of all that is that even insignificant people like you know that it happened and upset people. The alternative of protests that never happened certainly don't have your (or anybody else's) attention in nearly the same way, obviously.
    - freedomben 9y ago
      I don't disagree, but your comment could be improved by removing the "even insignificant people like you" part. That felt unnecessary.
      - nojvek 9y ago
        To he fair, aren't we all insignificant in the grand scale of things?
    - hueving 9y ago
      That's the same outcome of terrorist attacks and massive ad campaigns. Hardly useful without an actual message. The only thing most people know about occupy wall street was that a bunch of people camped out for no particular reason.
StephenMelon 9y ago
Apple’s most valuable asset is its brand. The brand values include good citizenship, disability awareness, eco-friendliness and diversity. Appearing to be money-grabbing corporate assholes could cause them real damage, so protests absolutely can have an effect.
- innocentoldguy 9y ago
  Why would you have that perception? Apple has said repeatedly that they are happy to pay what they legally owe, and that the issue is simply a matter of where they owe, not how much. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we've got a lot of Americans on HN. For us, that approach failed as of last night.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
linkmotif 9y ago
> or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. They pay their lawful taxes. They engage in tax avoidance, not tax evasion.
threeseed 9y ago
1) Anyone who thinks this will affect Apple's bottom line is delusional. The negative effects of the publicity pales in comparison to the tax benefits. 2) Protesting your local politicians always works provided you have enough people. You're just not doing a good enough job convincing your fellow citizens. That's how you really effect change.
innocentoldguy 9y ago
I couldn’t care less about downvotes. Most of the time, they are indicative of disagreement more than anything else, and I come here for discussion, not glad-handing people for meaningless votes. Furthermore, the issue of tax law/enforcement isn’t going to be solved by whining at Apple. If you don’t like the laws that offer legal loopholes for large corporations to lessen their tax burden, your lawmakers are the ones you need to be protesting, not Apple.
- StephenMelon 9y ago
  Actually, given that lawmakers are in effect captured by large corporations, and Apple are the largest of all, what they think about tax law actually really matters. Tim Cook has spoken out about cash repatriation several times and the debate seems to be about where the tax is paid. If a phone is sold in France, a corporation is making money from the French market, so given that that market has fixed infrastructure costs, shouldn’t actors in that market contribute to those costs through taxation?
  - innocentoldguy 9y ago
    France does receive tax on Apple’s business in the form of sales tax, VAT, property tax, corporate tax, etc., so I’m not sure what you’re insinuating here. Can you elaborate?

trgv 9y ago

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

threeseed 9y ago
People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ? It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.
- Retra 9y ago
  The outcome of all that is that even insignificant people like you know that it happened and upset people. The alternative of protests that never happened certainly don't have your (or anybody else's) attention in nearly the same way, obviously.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    I don't disagree, but your comment could be improved by removing the "even insignificant people like you" part. That felt unnecessary.
    - nojvek 9y ago
      To he fair, aren't we all insignificant in the grand scale of things?
  - hueving 9y ago
    That's the same outcome of terrorist attacks and massive ad campaigns. Hardly useful without an actual message. The only thing most people know about occupy wall street was that a bunch of people camped out for no particular reason.

StephenMelon 9y ago

Apple’s most valuable asset is its brand. The brand values include good citizenship, disability awareness, eco-friendliness and diversity. Appearing to be money-grabbing corporate assholes could cause them real damage, so protests absolutely can have an effect.

innocentoldguy 9y ago
Why would you have that perception? Apple has said repeatedly that they are happy to pay what they legally owe, and that the issue is simply a matter of where they owe, not how much. Seems pretty reasonable to me.