7 ms·

It is somewhat amusing that they give scholarships to people with financial industry background, who are the least in need, and who will receive the highest sal

It is somewhat amusing that they give scholarships to people with financial industry background, who are the least in need, and who will receive the highest salaries on exit - and then claim that their scholarships are need based. At least they are teaching their students the ethics they need to succeed in the financial industry.

jknz 9y ago
Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top talents don't go elsewhere. University too, can have a diversity policy as well as a merit policy. To compete and attract the best students, University must either provide merit based scholarship, or organize with other universities to get rid of merit based scholarships everywhere (cartel!)
- nostromo 9y ago
  Sure, but don’t lie about it. If it’s not need-based, don’t insist it’s need-based.
  - jknz 9y ago
    Ok, lies are unacceptable. To play devil's advocate here: the press and the public do not want to hear that tech companies pay 7 digits of monthly salary to attract some talent. Nor do they want to hear that Universities have to offer merit based scholarships to attract top students, otherwise these students will go elsewhere. Companies advertise their diversity efforts but not the salaries of their executives. Stanford said what the public wanted to hear.
    - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
      Our society is culturally configured to promote lying here. Instead of addressing the issue openly like adults, people decide to operate covertly, driven by competition and fear of missing out. It'll be nice when we start to culturally grow up a bit and begin trusting the world. Collaboration/hybridization is much quicker than competition when it comes to genetic evolution & I suspect the same holds for cultural evolution.
      - mcguire 9y ago
        So, to start with, shut down the rules against discussing salaries or university costs with coworkers and other students, respectively.
        asimpletune 9y ago
        I don’t know if there are rules against that. I think it’s more an unspoken rule that may have consequences if violated, although I’m fairly certain that’s illegal. The impetus is more on us to be open with each other about salary. It’s only in the company’s best interest for us not to do so.
        mcguire 9y ago
        According to the article, "[Allcock’s report] says the school also tells applicants not to reveal to their classmates the size of their discount." Unwritten or unspoken, it does need to go.
        sabujp 9y ago
        that seems as illegal as telling your employees that they can't share salaries
        fjsolwmv 9y ago
        Seems as wrong, not as illegal. Legal is a specific technical standard.
        namelezz 9y ago
        > So, to start with, shut down the rules against discussing salaries or university costs with coworkers and other students, respectively. No, this will expose evidences of institutional and systemic racism and question people about the country name. Should it be United State or Segregated State?
      - jamesrcole 9y ago
    - throw2016 9y ago
      How can any individual claim to 'know' what the press and public want to hear? This is a comically self serving assertion and anyone making this kind of claim is acting in a political and manipulative manner. This is the best apologism for a liar, because apparently that's what the person lied to 'wanted to hear', according to the liar. Integrity does not depend on what people want to hear. Stanford can articulate their view point and do their own thing. Lying betrays a lack of belief in their view point and a lack of integrity.
    - tankenmate 9y ago
      Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made. -- John Godfrey Saxe It would appear that scholarships follow a similar vein.
    - bradleyjg 9y ago
      > Stanford said what the public wanted to hear. There's a bait and switch that colleges do. Also hospitals, but mostly colleges. On the one hand they go out and tell people what a value driven organization it is, how their passion is making the world a better place -- when they are asking for money from people almost of whom have far less in the bank than they already do and when they are defending things like very adventagous tax rates. On the other hand when they get caught doing something that looks unprincipled or rapacious they all of a sudden become economists lecturing you about how of course every organization acts as an interest maximizier and what are you naive? Well maybe we were naive. But now that everyone knows what the deal is maybe they can lay off the disingenuous appeals for donations and tax expenditures. Fool me once and all that.
      - ramzyo 9y ago
        I agree. I think universities can be both, but they should just be honest about it! There’s nothing wrong with being both a for profit institution that needs to turn a profit and a value driven organization. Be up front though, and don’t make outsiders feel in the wrong when they call you out for mixed messaging.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      Exec pay is reported and published, required by law.
  - trentnix 9y ago
    The narrative must be maintained, comrade!
    - NotableAlamode 9y ago
      To paraphrase Brecht: Who fights for XYZ must be able to fight and not to fight, to say the truth and not to say the truth, to render and to deny service, to keep a promise and to break a promise, to go into danger and to avoid danger, to be known and to be unknown. Who fights for XYZ has of all the virtues only one: that he fights for XYZ.
    - CapacitorSet 9y ago
      A private university, especially privileging students from finance backgrounds, is about as far from communism as it gets.
      - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
        Actually, no. This reveals the extent to which the US financial industry operates with similar quasi-aristocratic political dynamics - especially covert privilege based on perceived conformity and career potential - as the old Soviet Communist Party.
        CapacitorSet 9y ago
        Aristocracy and privilege are about as far from communism as it gets.
        jack9 9y ago
        > Aristocracy and privilege are about as far from communism as it gets. In theory. In practice (history is full of it), the castes develop overnight. A group of individuals has to make decisions and manage the oversight and record keeping, etc. This leads to corruption and a de-facto aristocracy.
        9y ago
  - obastani 9y ago
    It is need based -- it goes to the students least in need! /s
- notyourday 9y ago
  If that's the case, why are we surprised that execs are lying? Or shall I say "creatively refining terms"? They start by going to schools that lie, teach how to lie and get away with it. In some ideal world alums of that school would immediately turn around and tell the school "You will not get a penny until you terminate everyone who participated in approving and carrying out this program for lying and do so publicly" but instead what we are going to get is more pieces about "how the school needs to get better".
- Kinnard 9y ago
  >Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top talents don't go elsewhere. Those should be one policy, the diversity policy is about making sure top talent doesn't go elsewhere . . . your comment implies that people from "diverse" backgrounds are not top talent, whether that's what you meant or not.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    One of the chief points in this article was that "diversity" is often an excuse to hire/admit people who will bring in a lot of money, connections, and prestige but aren't necessarily the most meritorious candidate. Malia Obama is Diverse. John Dorsey from the wrong side of Chicago is just an Urban Youth.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    No one can define "top"
  - holbrad 9y ago
    >the diversity policy is about making sure top talent doesn't go elsewhere From what I know that doesn't seem to be the case at all, it's about projecting a positive image of your company (The candidates skills are secondary) (Though in theory the standards should be identical) The hiring practices should be based upon who would be the best candidate (Experience, technical skills, personality, Education) When you simply focus on what objective skills you need as an employer, you should find "Diverse"/minority candidates in proportion to what percentage of top candidates they occupy. This surely creates the most level playing field?
Spooky23 9y ago
Well, Stanford has a need for future rich donors. Perhaps that’s the need being met?
- kelukelugames 9y ago
  I'm sure people have done studies. Who donates more money? The poor kids who struggled through life and attended Stanfurd that finallyed opened the doors for him to become rich? Or the blue blood with the silver spoon who would have made it through daddy's connections regardless of which school he went to? I feel the former has stronger gratitude for his school.
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    Some don't donate due to gratitude, some donate to increase the chances their children will get in, and/or otherwise obtain social signals or networking benefits that can be used to further oneself.
    - at-fates-hands 9y ago
      From what I know it's the latter. We had a large percentage of my graduating high school class end up at ivy league schools. It was interesting to talk to them a decade after they had graduated and were in full swing with their professional career's and life. One buddy I know who went to Princeton and ended up on Wall St told me they hound him for donations. His fraternity does the same with the emphasis on exactly what you pointed out. He wants his children to have a better chance they he did, so he donates large six figure sums every year to the school and fraternity hoping when his two kids grown up, they will have a leg up on the competition to get in there.
      - hkmurakami 9y ago
        As a fellow Princeton grad, I think his children will indeed have a better chance than most of getting in due to their legacy status, resource rich upbringing, and those donations.
namelezz 9y ago
> who are the least in need, and who will receive the highest salaries on exit Keep in mind they not only give scholarships but also education to the least in need .
mcguire 9y ago
Depends on whose needs they're talking about.
antibland 9y ago
I would vote this up further but it would cause the comment to breach the upper shell of my phone.
watertom 9y ago
It is need based, the needs of the university. The people who go into finance and make the most money contribute more to the University.
- zumu 9y ago
  I wonder if this is primarily an American thing, or if this phenomenon exists in other countries. Seems like one could solve this issue by making university cheap or free.
  - toyg 9y ago
    It likely exists anywhere universities rely on alumni’s donations, i.e. anywhere universities are private businesses, like in UK. Probably not a big deal in places where unis are state-funded and places are not limited.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    Not only American, but not common either. The best analogy to American business schools will be party (communist party) schools in Soviet Union and China. I can't pick words to express just how similar are these two systems. And in all of those countries, you have huge masses of clueless parents seeing these institutes as something that magically, effortlessly make their children "big men" of higher socioeconomic standing overnight once they graduate. As for me, my own experience was that it takes a lot to convince parents that Western "big name business school" is a gigantic waste of money if you go there for actual skills and knowledge. And the argument "you go to business school to make connection with kids of other rich people" does not hold water either. All of such students are well connected people to begin with, and are very class conscious themselves. If they see no use of socialising with you, what will make them want doing so? I wrote another post below explaining how it was for me.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      You're wrong. By getting into the school, and then acting the part well, you can make a friend who gives you an opportunity to get into the class.
anonu 9y ago
> At least they are teaching their students the ethics they need to succeed in the financial industry. The US Financial sector probably employs 5 million people in this country. You are telling all those people are unethical as your comment implies? That is a bit biased.
mathattack 9y ago
Business schools use financial aid to bring in students that help their ratings. This can be through tangible #s like GMATs and SATs, to people who will command high salaries (finance background) to students who are likely to make them look good (serial entrepreneurs).
volgo 9y ago
Need base depends on your parent's income and their ability to pay tuition. It has nothing to do with future income

jknz 9y ago

Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top talents don't go elsewhere. University too, can have a diversity policy as well as a merit policy. To compete and attract the best students, University must either provide merit based scholarship, or organize with other universities to get rid of merit based scholarships everywhere (cartel!)

nostromo 9y ago
Sure, but don’t lie about it. If it’s not need-based, don’t insist it’s need-based.
- jknz 9y ago
  Ok, lies are unacceptable. To play devil's advocate here: the press and the public do not want to hear that tech companies pay 7 digits of monthly salary to attract some talent. Nor do they want to hear that Universities have to offer merit based scholarships to attract top students, otherwise these students will go elsewhere. Companies advertise their diversity efforts but not the salaries of their executives. Stanford said what the public wanted to hear.
  - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
    Our society is culturally configured to promote lying here. Instead of addressing the issue openly like adults, people decide to operate covertly, driven by competition and fear of missing out. It'll be nice when we start to culturally grow up a bit and begin trusting the world. Collaboration/hybridization is much quicker than competition when it comes to genetic evolution & I suspect the same holds for cultural evolution.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      So, to start with, shut down the rules against discussing salaries or university costs with coworkers and other students, respectively.
      - asimpletune 9y ago
        I don’t know if there are rules against that. I think it’s more an unspoken rule that may have consequences if violated, although I’m fairly certain that’s illegal. The impetus is more on us to be open with each other about salary. It’s only in the company’s best interest for us not to do so.
        mcguire 9y ago
        According to the article, "[Allcock’s report] says the school also tells applicants not to reveal to their classmates the size of their discount." Unwritten or unspoken, it does need to go.
        sabujp 9y ago
        that seems as illegal as telling your employees that they can't share salaries
        fjsolwmv 9y ago
        Seems as wrong, not as illegal. Legal is a specific technical standard.
      - namelezz 9y ago
        > So, to start with, shut down the rules against discussing salaries or university costs with coworkers and other students, respectively. No, this will expose evidences of institutional and systemic racism and question people about the country name. Should it be United State or Segregated State?
    - jamesrcole 9y ago
  - throw2016 9y ago
    How can any individual claim to 'know' what the press and public want to hear? This is a comically self serving assertion and anyone making this kind of claim is acting in a political and manipulative manner. This is the best apologism for a liar, because apparently that's what the person lied to 'wanted to hear', according to the liar. Integrity does not depend on what people want to hear. Stanford can articulate their view point and do their own thing. Lying betrays a lack of belief in their view point and a lack of integrity.
  - tankenmate 9y ago
    Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made. -- John Godfrey Saxe It would appear that scholarships follow a similar vein.
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    > Stanford said what the public wanted to hear. There's a bait and switch that colleges do. Also hospitals, but mostly colleges. On the one hand they go out and tell people what a value driven organization it is, how their passion is making the world a better place -- when they are asking for money from people almost of whom have far less in the bank than they already do and when they are defending things like very adventagous tax rates. On the other hand when they get caught doing something that looks unprincipled or rapacious they all of a sudden become economists lecturing you about how of course every organization acts as an interest maximizier and what are you naive? Well maybe we were naive. But now that everyone knows what the deal is maybe they can lay off the disingenuous appeals for donations and tax expenditures. Fool me once and all that.
    - ramzyo 9y ago
      I agree. I think universities can be both, but they should just be honest about it! There’s nothing wrong with being both a for profit institution that needs to turn a profit and a value driven organization. Be up front though, and don’t make outsiders feel in the wrong when they call you out for mixed messaging.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Exec pay is reported and published, required by law.
- trentnix 9y ago
  The narrative must be maintained, comrade!
  - NotableAlamode 9y ago
    To paraphrase Brecht: Who fights for XYZ must be able to fight and not to fight, to say the truth and not to say the truth, to render and to deny service, to keep a promise and to break a promise, to go into danger and to avoid danger, to be known and to be unknown. Who fights for XYZ has of all the virtues only one: that he fights for XYZ.
  - CapacitorSet 9y ago
    A private university, especially privileging students from finance backgrounds, is about as far from communism as it gets.
    - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
      Actually, no. This reveals the extent to which the US financial industry operates with similar quasi-aristocratic political dynamics - especially covert privilege based on perceived conformity and career potential - as the old Soviet Communist Party.
      - CapacitorSet 9y ago
        Aristocracy and privilege are about as far from communism as it gets.
        jack9 9y ago
        > Aristocracy and privilege are about as far from communism as it gets. In theory. In practice (history is full of it), the castes develop overnight. A group of individuals has to make decisions and manage the oversight and record keeping, etc. This leads to corruption and a de-facto aristocracy.
        9y ago
- obastani 9y ago
  It is need based -- it goes to the students least in need! /s
notyourday 9y ago
If that's the case, why are we surprised that execs are lying? Or shall I say "creatively refining terms"? They start by going to schools that lie, teach how to lie and get away with it. In some ideal world alums of that school would immediately turn around and tell the school "You will not get a penny until you terminate everyone who participated in approving and carrying out this program for lying and do so publicly" but instead what we are going to get is more pieces about "how the school needs to get better".
Kinnard 9y ago
>Companies can have both a diversity policy and a policy to make sure the top talents don't go elsewhere. Those should be one policy, the diversity policy is about making sure top talent doesn't go elsewhere . . . your comment implies that people from "diverse" backgrounds are not top talent, whether that's what you meant or not.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  One of the chief points in this article was that "diversity" is often an excuse to hire/admit people who will bring in a lot of money, connections, and prestige but aren't necessarily the most meritorious candidate. Malia Obama is Diverse. John Dorsey from the wrong side of Chicago is just an Urban Youth.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  No one can define "top"
- holbrad 9y ago
  >the diversity policy is about making sure top talent doesn't go elsewhere From what I know that doesn't seem to be the case at all, it's about projecting a positive image of your company (The candidates skills are secondary) (Though in theory the standards should be identical) The hiring practices should be based upon who would be the best candidate (Experience, technical skills, personality, Education) When you simply focus on what objective skills you need as an employer, you should find "Diverse"/minority candidates in proportion to what percentage of top candidates they occupy. This surely creates the most level playing field?

Spooky23 9y ago

Well, Stanford has a need for future rich donors. Perhaps that’s the need being met?

kelukelugames 9y ago
I'm sure people have done studies. Who donates more money? The poor kids who struggled through life and attended Stanfurd that finallyed opened the doors for him to become rich? Or the blue blood with the silver spoon who would have made it through daddy's connections regardless of which school he went to? I feel the former has stronger gratitude for his school.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  Some don't donate due to gratitude, some donate to increase the chances their children will get in, and/or otherwise obtain social signals or networking benefits that can be used to further oneself.
  - at-fates-hands 9y ago
    From what I know it's the latter. We had a large percentage of my graduating high school class end up at ivy league schools. It was interesting to talk to them a decade after they had graduated and were in full swing with their professional career's and life. One buddy I know who went to Princeton and ended up on Wall St told me they hound him for donations. His fraternity does the same with the emphasis on exactly what you pointed out. He wants his children to have a better chance they he did, so he donates large six figure sums every year to the school and fraternity hoping when his two kids grown up, they will have a leg up on the competition to get in there.
    - hkmurakami 9y ago
      As a fellow Princeton grad, I think his children will indeed have a better chance than most of getting in due to their legacy status, resource rich upbringing, and those donations.

namelezz 9y ago

> who are the least in need, and who will receive the highest salaries on exit Keep in mind they not only give scholarships but also education to the least in need .

mcguire 9y ago

Depends on whose needs they're talking about.

antibland 9y ago

I would vote this up further but it would cause the comment to breach the upper shell of my phone.

watertom 9y ago

It is need based, the needs of the university. The people who go into finance and make the most money contribute more to the University.

zumu 9y ago
I wonder if this is primarily an American thing, or if this phenomenon exists in other countries. Seems like one could solve this issue by making university cheap or free.
- toyg 9y ago
  It likely exists anywhere universities rely on alumni’s donations, i.e. anywhere universities are private businesses, like in UK. Probably not a big deal in places where unis are state-funded and places are not limited.
- baybal2 9y ago
  Not only American, but not common either. The best analogy to American business schools will be party (communist party) schools in Soviet Union and China. I can't pick words to express just how similar are these two systems. And in all of those countries, you have huge masses of clueless parents seeing these institutes as something that magically, effortlessly make their children "big men" of higher socioeconomic standing overnight once they graduate. As for me, my own experience was that it takes a lot to convince parents that Western "big name business school" is a gigantic waste of money if you go there for actual skills and knowledge. And the argument "you go to business school to make connection with kids of other rich people" does not hold water either. All of such students are well connected people to begin with, and are very class conscious themselves. If they see no use of socialising with you, what will make them want doing so? I wrote another post below explaining how it was for me.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    You're wrong. By getting into the school, and then acting the part well, you can make a friend who gives you an opportunity to get into the class.

anonu 9y ago

> At least they are teaching their students the ethics they need to succeed in the financial industry. The US Financial sector probably employs 5 million people in this country. You are telling all those people are unethical as your comment implies? That is a bit biased.

mathattack 9y ago

Business schools use financial aid to bring in students that help their ratings. This can be through tangible #s like GMATs and SATs, to people who will command high salaries (finance background) to students who are likely to make them look good (serial entrepreneurs).

volgo 9y ago

Need base depends on your parent's income and their ability to pay tuition. It has nothing to do with future income