6 ms·

I'll admit, I used to be the first to update to their latest betas, now I'm terrified to even install the public releases. They have to do better than this. Ha

by _arvin 9y ago

I'll admit, I used to be the first to update to their latest betas, now I'm terrified to even install the public releases. They have to do better than this. Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade? That's really weak. Releasing an update that undoes that? Pure amateur hour by the guys we really trust with privacy. Separately, lately they've treated me ridiculously bad (and it's _never_ been like this) at the Apple Store on a failed logic board for my 7 Plus to no fault of my own (saying I was 41 days out of warranty, sorry), so I called Apple Care and they promptly took care of it for me, but should I really have had to jump through all those hoops? Really soured me. I'm also on 3-month long thread with an iTunes Adviser (hi Grant) trying to convert some damn gift cards from iTunes to Apple Store. The easiest request ever. Now he's just no longer picking up his phone, voicemail, or responding to emails. Can't tell you the frustration involved in this (my dad had accidentally selected Apple iTunes instead of Apple Store when redeeming his Wells Fargo rewards) Having said all that, I'm still support these guys - why, I don't know anymore. That'll be changing soon, for sure.

ryanlol 9y ago
>Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade? ????
- _arvin 9y ago
  You don't find that true? Anyone with physical (or remote) access can type in root, with no password, and have full control? ????
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    I think you have a very limited understanding of the state of software security in general if you think that is true. Bugs far worse than this are discovered on a weekly basis. This one is just easy to exploit so it’s been hyped up by people who would normally ignore slightly more technical descriptions of much worse vulnerabilities.
    - _arvin 9y ago
      How so? If you own a macOS device and you weren't freaking out about the root bug, or all the other blunders that have been happening recently, then I think it's you that has the limited understanding.
      - ryanlol 9y ago
        Bugs like this are discovered regularly. If you are “freaking out” about this it is solely because you have not been paying attention before. Describing this as “one of the biggest bugs of the decade” is insane when you see stuff like the Eternal* exploits released by TSB.
        zulln 9y ago
        I think it is valid to take exploitability into the equation.
        ryanlol 9y ago
        And the impact remains minuscule outside of the remote desktop scenario. The attacker must already have access to exploit this, and one would have to be utterly clueless to expect that an attacker wouldn't be able to get root some other way.
        fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        Really? Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation or specialist knowledge are discovered regularly? How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.
        ryanlol 9y ago
        >Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation Not the case here. This bug only¹ allows you to log into an unencrypted Mac, which you should of course never leave unattended. >How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers. Are you equally worried about the DMA attacks which affect most computers and are not widely considered vulnerabilities? It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here. >If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. If this isn't the case then why does the device contain data which makes a compromise by an adversary with physical access problematic? >Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers. Only in an absurd scenario where you store sensitive plaintext data on a publicly accessible machine and expect it to remain secure. At this point no software is going to save you. ¹ Worth noting here that it also affects some Remote Desktop configurations which is the only actually somewhat serious part of this bug.
soccerdave 9y ago
RE: converting iTunes gift cards to Apple store cards. I’ve never heard of anyone being able to do this, iTunes gift cards can very easily be obtained for +20% off of face value and the same cannot be said for Apple store cards.
- _arvin 9y ago
  Dave, I'm losing my mind. $600 worth of iTunes Music gift cards, and my dad doesn't have an iTunes account. It was the most honest mistake ever, but we're paying the price for it. Sent them all the documentation involved (including everything from WF). It's just converting money from one card to another, they _can_ do it, but they don't want to.
  - endorphone 9y ago
    How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue? If your father chose an iRobot instead would you expect iRobot to transfer it to Apple Store credit? As Dave said, iTunes cards are seldom sold at face value, often coming at up to 30% off. Apple Store credit is worth face value explicitly. This isn't Apple's problem. Sell the cards privately (you will take a loss) and be more careful next time.
    - wwosik 9y ago
      I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. Of course they can send him away. Is it worth that though?
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - endorphone 9y ago
        I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. You universally can't transfer iTunes cards to Apple Store cards. I just got Apple Store gift cards with some Apple purchases -- are you saying that I just need to act disappointed enough to get it? That I need to be as demanding and foot stomping of a customer, then it makes sense? There is a point where the customer is wrong. I'll take the downvotes, but Apple says no to countless people every year who make irrational demands. They still manage to exist.
justherefortart 9y ago
10.0, 10.1, 10.2 were all terrible. 10.3 on got better, but you continually have had these horrible pre x.x.3 releases that have been show stoppers. I won't even touch Mac OS until it's past the 3rd revision. Reminds me of old Windows where you waited for SP3.
- StringyBob 9y ago
  Somewhere between ios9 and 10.3 on an iphone6 things got noticably slower e.g. pauses lasting multiple seconds while doing things like scrolling. I suspected the filesystem update, but could be anything. Apple are forward looking in development - meaning they don't seem to be doing much regression testing for things like performance with last years model - or if they are, they don't care. I'm not letting ios11 anywhere near my phone based on the usability impact I've seen on others, which leaves me open to old security vulnerabilities. Microsoft security patch old operating system versions - its kinda ironic how the 2 companies have switched places.
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 never shipped with these kind of issues: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23-2017-12-41-55.gif http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23... (from the Ars High Sierra review) That's the kind of thing Apple made fun of Windows Vista for in the Get a Mac ads.
  - justherefortart 9y ago
    Yea because no one was using them. Everyone was still on 9.2. OS X sucked horribly until 10.2 and wasn't decent IMO until 10.3.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
qubex 9y ago
I'll air my recent horror story: my Mac Mini Server 6,2 (2012) has two SSDs I had welded together as a RAID-0 array. I updated from 10.12 Sierra to 10.13 High Sierra without a hitch. On 20 November I for reasons I know bitterly regret I decided to wipe my system and reload from backups... an exercise that usually takes six hours, max. I've run into issue after issue (High Sierra formatting the RAID array as APFS by default and then announcing that is not a bootable configuration, terrible RAID drivers littering my installer log with write errors and thus refusing to restore Time Machine backups onto the array once I reformatted it as JHFS+, and latterly some obscure kernel cache error that precludes booting)... long story short, twelve days after the fatal decision, my system is still not bootable. And Apple Support is non-existent. Documentation about APFS and RAID is thin on the ground. Phone support told me in no uncertain terms that my Mini's number was not a Server so I could not access Enterprise Support, and of course the consumer level folks do not know anything about RAID (or even multi-drive systems). It's been a total shitstorm. Never have I been so proximate to just dumping them and telling them to piss off, but I also know I won't, because I am too deeply invested in their integrated ecosystem (macOS, Mac Pro, MacBook, iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music...)... except I am starting to think it might make sense to tell them to piss off integrally and voting with my feet.
- chmars 9y ago
  I am about to switch away from my Mac Mini Server: It gets way to hot, more and more features are no longer available through Server.app, and Spotlight on MacOS Server has never been great (at least not better than on an up-to-date Synology NAS these days). Each update was a reason for bad sleep … Since all the software we were using as local installations moved to SaaS, only file storage and Resilio Sync are left – band oth can be done with a NAS or cloud services like Google Team Drive / Google Drive File Stream. The latter has great reliability and many useful compliance features.
  - hollander 9y ago
    Install Ubuntu or Debian on it. Find linux alternatives to the solutions you use now.
noonespecial 9y ago
I've been feeling this as well and trying to put my finger on exactly whats going on. Despite all of their massive cash reserves, they seem to be developing a fundamental stinginess in just about everything customer facing. Its really odd that a company riding so very high on cash would spend so much brand reputation to save a few pennies here and there. It was their generosity taking care of customers that helped their brand become so valuable in the first place.
- nojvek 9y ago
  Well they are still making crazy, paying less tax than the average American and stashing truck loads of cash offshore. Only way to truly vote is with your wallet. But Android is no less evil. Google will sell your data like a slave master to the highest bidder.
- bfuller 9y ago
  when was their last home run? their cash is their only real asset
ksec 9y ago
Apple Store, and with Genius Bar constantly running out of slot and shot on staff, they decide that the store is no longer a store but a communities meet up place...... Having said that. I dont think Apple should and could convert those Gift Card. iTunes Gift Cards have promotion and discount. I think that is entirely Wells Fargo's problem.
AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
> That'll be changing soon, for sure. Changing, to who? I am genuinely asking because I really don't see any alternatives, which I agree is unfortunate and sad, but, I just don't see them right now.
akulbe 9y ago
I ditched them for Windows 10 on a Dell XPS. Android on a Pixel XL 2. If Apple doesn't care to maintain any quality standards, then it's not worth paying the price premium. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At least Microsoft is listening to their users!
rubyn00bie 9y ago
I’ve been treated like shit at the Apple Store for years and years. I’ve been followed by employees relentlessly around the store even days after spending $3k+, ruthlessly ignored while even being helped (once had to be wait 25 minutes for one dollar in change because middle aged white man was more important than finishing my transaction, Apple employee had my dollar in their hand), I had my graphics issues ignored in my previous MacBook Pro which deeply affected its use. Eventually I sold the laptop (3+ years later) only have Apple within weeks say it was an issue and replace them with newer MacBook pros. My laptop never worked and all I got told was to “reinstall OS X.” Apple is on track to become the shittiest most alienating company on the planet. For a company I loved, I don’t think I could hate them more and be more consistently disappointed. I wish I didn’t dislike android because I’d leave this hot pile of apple shit behind at this point. Their focus isn’t on creating content it’s on consuming it. They’ve lost track of the creatives and innovators.

by _arvin 9y ago

ryanlol 9y ago

>Having a Twitter user report one of the biggest bugs this decade? ????

_arvin 9y ago
You don't find that true? Anyone with physical (or remote) access can type in root, with no password, and have full control? ????
- ryanlol 9y ago
  I think you have a very limited understanding of the state of software security in general if you think that is true. Bugs far worse than this are discovered on a weekly basis. This one is just easy to exploit so it’s been hyped up by people who would normally ignore slightly more technical descriptions of much worse vulnerabilities.
  - _arvin 9y ago
    How so? If you own a macOS device and you weren't freaking out about the root bug, or all the other blunders that have been happening recently, then I think it's you that has the limited understanding.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      Bugs like this are discovered regularly. If you are “freaking out” about this it is solely because you have not been paying attention before. Describing this as “one of the biggest bugs of the decade” is insane when you see stuff like the Eternal* exploits released by TSB.
      - zulln 9y ago
        I think it is valid to take exploitability into the equation.
        ryanlol 9y ago
        And the impact remains minuscule outside of the remote desktop scenario. The attacker must already have access to exploit this, and one would have to be utterly clueless to expect that an attacker wouldn't be able to get root some other way.
      - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        Really? Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation or specialist knowledge are discovered regularly? How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers.
        ryanlol 9y ago
        >Bugs that allow anyone with physical access to log into any Mac without any preparation Not the case here. This bug only¹ allows you to log into an unencrypted Mac, which you should of course never leave unattended. >How bad this is depends entirely on your circumstances. If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers. Are you equally worried about the DMA attacks which affect most computers and are not widely considered vulnerabilities? It feels to me that you're creating a rather unrealistic threat model here. >If your Mac is only accessible to people you fully trust then good for you. If this isn't the case then why does the device contain data which makes a compromise by an adversary with physical access problematic? >Otherwise this bug is potentially far worse than anything that could be launched over a network by anonymous attackers. Only in an absurd scenario where you store sensitive plaintext data on a publicly accessible machine and expect it to remain secure. At this point no software is going to save you. ¹ Worth noting here that it also affects some Remote Desktop configurations which is the only actually somewhat serious part of this bug.

soccerdave 9y ago

RE: converting iTunes gift cards to Apple store cards. I’ve never heard of anyone being able to do this, iTunes gift cards can very easily be obtained for +20% off of face value and the same cannot be said for Apple store cards.

_arvin 9y ago
Dave, I'm losing my mind. $600 worth of iTunes Music gift cards, and my dad doesn't have an iTunes account. It was the most honest mistake ever, but we're paying the price for it. Sent them all the documentation involved (including everything from WF). It's just converting money from one card to another, they _can_ do it, but they don't want to.
- endorphone 9y ago
  How isn't this a WF issue instead of an Apple issue? If your father chose an iRobot instead would you expect iRobot to transfer it to Apple Store credit? As Dave said, iTunes cards are seldom sold at face value, often coming at up to 30% off. Apple Store credit is worth face value explicitly. This isn't Apple's problem. Sell the cards privately (you will take a loss) and be more careful next time.
  - wwosik 9y ago
    I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. Of course they can send him away. Is it worth that though?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - endorphone 9y ago
      I'd say it is Apple's problem to have a disappointed customer. You universally can't transfer iTunes cards to Apple Store cards. I just got Apple Store gift cards with some Apple purchases -- are you saying that I just need to act disappointed enough to get it? That I need to be as demanding and foot stomping of a customer, then it makes sense? There is a point where the customer is wrong. I'll take the downvotes, but Apple says no to countless people every year who make irrational demands. They still manage to exist.

justherefortart 9y ago

10.0, 10.1, 10.2 were all terrible. 10.3 on got better, but you continually have had these horrible pre x.x.3 releases that have been show stoppers. I won't even touch Mac OS until it's past the 3rd revision. Reminds me of old Windows where you waited for SP3.

StringyBob 9y ago
Somewhere between ios9 and 10.3 on an iphone6 things got noticably slower e.g. pauses lasting multiple seconds while doing things like scrolling. I suspected the filesystem update, but could be anything. Apple are forward looking in development - meaning they don't seem to be doing much regression testing for things like performance with last years model - or if they are, they don't care. I'm not letting ios11 anywhere near my phone based on the usability impact I've seen on others, which leaves me open to old security vulnerabilities. Microsoft security patch old operating system versions - its kinda ironic how the 2 companies have switched places.
ghostcluster 9y ago
10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 never shipped with these kind of issues: http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23-2017-12-41-55.gif http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep-23... (from the Ars High Sierra review) That's the kind of thing Apple made fun of Windows Vista for in the Get a Mac ads.
- justherefortart 9y ago
  Yea because no one was using them. Everyone was still on 9.2. OS X sucked horribly until 10.2 and wasn't decent IMO until 10.3.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

qubex 9y ago

I'll air my recent horror story: my Mac Mini Server 6,2 (2012) has two SSDs I had welded together as a RAID-0 array. I updated from 10.12 Sierra to 10.13 High Sierra without a hitch. On 20 November I for reasons I know bitterly regret I decided to wipe my system and reload from backups... an exercise that usually takes six hours, max. I've run into issue after issue (High Sierra formatting the RAID array as APFS by default and then announcing that is not a bootable configuration, terrible RAID drivers littering my installer log with write errors and thus refusing to restore Time Machine backups onto the array once I reformatted it as JHFS+, and latterly some obscure kernel cache error that precludes booting)... long story short, twelve days after the fatal decision, my system is still not bootable. And Apple Support is non-existent. Documentation about APFS and RAID is thin on the ground. Phone support told me in no uncertain terms that my Mini's number was not a Server so I could not access Enterprise Support, and of course the consumer level folks do not know anything about RAID (or even multi-drive systems). It's been a total shitstorm. Never have I been so proximate to just dumping them and telling them to piss off, but I also know I won't, because I am too deeply invested in their integrated ecosystem (macOS, Mac Pro, MacBook, iOS, iPhone, iPad, Apple Music...)... except I am starting to think it might make sense to tell them to piss off integrally and voting with my feet.

chmars 9y ago
I am about to switch away from my Mac Mini Server: It gets way to hot, more and more features are no longer available through Server.app, and Spotlight on MacOS Server has never been great (at least not better than on an up-to-date Synology NAS these days). Each update was a reason for bad sleep … Since all the software we were using as local installations moved to SaaS, only file storage and Resilio Sync are left – band oth can be done with a NAS or cloud services like Google Team Drive / Google Drive File Stream. The latter has great reliability and many useful compliance features.
- hollander 9y ago
  Install Ubuntu or Debian on it. Find linux alternatives to the solutions you use now.

noonespecial 9y ago

I've been feeling this as well and trying to put my finger on exactly whats going on. Despite all of their massive cash reserves, they seem to be developing a fundamental stinginess in just about everything customer facing. Its really odd that a company riding so very high on cash would spend so much brand reputation to save a few pennies here and there. It was their generosity taking care of customers that helped their brand become so valuable in the first place.

nojvek 9y ago
Well they are still making crazy, paying less tax than the average American and stashing truck loads of cash offshore. Only way to truly vote is with your wallet. But Android is no less evil. Google will sell your data like a slave master to the highest bidder.
bfuller 9y ago
when was their last home run? their cash is their only real asset

ksec 9y ago

Apple Store, and with Genius Bar constantly running out of slot and shot on staff, they decide that the store is no longer a store but a communities meet up place...... Having said that. I dont think Apple should and could convert those Gift Card. iTunes Gift Cards have promotion and discount. I think that is entirely Wells Fargo's problem.

AdamJacobMuller 9y ago

> That'll be changing soon, for sure. Changing, to who? I am genuinely asking because I really don't see any alternatives, which I agree is unfortunate and sad, but, I just don't see them right now.

akulbe 9y ago

I ditched them for Windows 10 on a Dell XPS. Android on a Pixel XL 2. If Apple doesn't care to maintain any quality standards, then it's not worth paying the price premium. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At least Microsoft is listening to their users!

rubyn00bie 9y ago

I’ve been treated like shit at the Apple Store for years and years. I’ve been followed by employees relentlessly around the store even days after spending $3k+, ruthlessly ignored while even being helped (once had to be wait 25 minutes for one dollar in change because middle aged white man was more important than finishing my transaction, Apple employee had my dollar in their hand), I had my graphics issues ignored in my previous MacBook Pro which deeply affected its use. Eventually I sold the laptop (3+ years later) only have Apple within weeks say it was an issue and replace them with newer MacBook pros. My laptop never worked and all I got told was to “reinstall OS X.” Apple is on track to become the shittiest most alienating company on the planet. For a company I loved, I don’t think I could hate them more and be more consistently disappointed. I wish I didn’t dislike android because I’d leave this hot pile of apple shit behind at this point. Their focus isn’t on creating content it’s on consuming it. They’ve lost track of the creatives and innovators.