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Sure, and you're welcome to dig up statistics from that region/subculture to substantiate OP's claims. Absent those, I remain skeptical that the demographics re

Sure, and you're welcome to dig up statistics from that region/subculture to substantiate OP's claims. Absent those, I remain skeptical that the demographics really different that much from the country as a whole.

watwut 9y ago
I guess that you are free to come to Slovakia and read the same archives and chronicles for that small region. The point is primary, that fertility statistics for whole Slovakia are useless here, because Slovakia is mostly Catholic. And they used to have big families, valued big families and having no or only one child would be a shame and sad for Catholic women. Author does not claim that Slovakia had low fertility, he claims that protestants were different and had culture of small families. So the stats you dug out are irrelevant.
rdtsc 9y ago
> you're welcome to dig up statistics from that region Given he specifically talks about a handful of places and contrasts with other regions where people had more children, and has a first hand account, shouldn't you be the one to dig up more info? Unless you think he completely made up the whole thing? Hopefully it's not that.
- microtherion 9y ago
  > Given he specifically talks about a handful of places and contrasts with other regions where people had more children, and has a first hand account, A second or third hand account of his great-grandmother leaving her farm, but he says he did NOT understand the reasons for leaving from the family account. > shouldn't you be the one to dig up more info? You know, when part of the theory being espoused is literally that the region got depopulated because protestant Slovaks had a particular penchant for sex with farm animals, I rather think that the proponent of the theory has to meet a bigger burden of proof than what's in evidence here. > Unless you think he completely made up the whole thing? Hopefully it's not that. "completely made up" is a strong word, and OP cites a source. However, reading (part of) that source, I get the strong impression that both interviewer and interviewee were fitting anecdotes into a preconceived narrative. There is a lot of speculation and gazing at headstones, and little mention of trying to get at the underlying numbers: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdennikn.sk%2F953687%2Fako-evanjelici-sami-seba-na-juhu-stredneho-slovenska-takmer-vyhubili%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=h...
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    > A second or third hand account of his great-grandmother leaving her farm, It's his great-grandmother and his family. I imagine he would know a thing or two about the culture, history and customs. Besides the particular story of the great-grandmother seems to just be a side story and background used to introduce the topic. > protestant Slovaks had a particular penchant for sex with farm animals Seems like that was misread. There were rumors of that happening because there was a cultural element encouraging having fewer children, so abstinence and various rituals around it became popular. I don't think reproductive and sex rituals are uncommon and strange. And we didn't invent strange sex stuff because internet is around. People were raunchy and sex obsessed before as well. I don't think that needs rigorous sources. > both interviewer and interviewee were fitting anecdotes into a preconceived narrative. It seems they still have more information and experience to draw from than an average HN'er here. If you just want to say, "I personally dislike that culture or ritual or theory", that's a fine thing. I can say I dislike spaghetti and like hamburgers more as well. But if you're trying to convince others that the presented story is wrong, then either a personal account would work (you live there, heard the stories, experience them), or even better if you have decent sources. Your source didn't quite do it and it's silly to ask the author or others to go dig more sources to prove their case.
    - microtherion 9y ago
      > It's his great-grandmother and his family. I imagine he would know a thing or two about the culture, history and customs. My reading of OP is that he does not claim to have understood these until he read the source. And neither he nor his sources seem to have any grasp of the underlying economics. The underlying narrative of a prosperous society that collapsed because nobody was available to work the fields is extremely dubious. OP mentions that there is 30% unemployment in the region. Why can't they STILL get anyone to work the fields (Not to mention the massive productivity improvements that agriculture has gone through)? > I don't think reproductive and sex rituals are uncommon and strange. [...] I don't think that needs rigorous sources. I don't think these are uncommon at all (especially the premarital sex on which the interview frowns so much)... which is precisely why I doubt their causal link to the observed depopulation. > It seems they still have more information and experience to draw from than an average HN'er here. If they do, why don't they share that information, instead of talking about sex with farm animals and premarital relations? Even through the language barrier of the translation, the moral panic is evident. > If you just want to say, "I personally dislike that culture or ritual or theory" I do dislike the theory. It's a rancid mix of natalism and moral panic. I do NOT dislike the culture. It's the OP and his sources who are claiming that Protestant Slovaks sheep shagged themselves to extinction. My baseline is that everybody has traditions, rituals, and the occasional dysfunction, so any contention that a particular set of these led to disaster needs to be backed by data, not anecdotes.

watwut 9y ago

I guess that you are free to come to Slovakia and read the same archives and chronicles for that small region. The point is primary, that fertility statistics for whole Slovakia are useless here, because Slovakia is mostly Catholic. And they used to have big families, valued big families and having no or only one child would be a shame and sad for Catholic women. Author does not claim that Slovakia had low fertility, he claims that protestants were different and had culture of small families. So the stats you dug out are irrelevant.

rdtsc 9y ago

> you're welcome to dig up statistics from that region Given he specifically talks about a handful of places and contrasts with other regions where people had more children, and has a first hand account, shouldn't you be the one to dig up more info? Unless you think he completely made up the whole thing? Hopefully it's not that.

microtherion 9y ago
> Given he specifically talks about a handful of places and contrasts with other regions where people had more children, and has a first hand account, A second or third hand account of his great-grandmother leaving her farm, but he says he did NOT understand the reasons for leaving from the family account. > shouldn't you be the one to dig up more info? You know, when part of the theory being espoused is literally that the region got depopulated because protestant Slovaks had a particular penchant for sex with farm animals, I rather think that the proponent of the theory has to meet a bigger burden of proof than what's in evidence here. > Unless you think he completely made up the whole thing? Hopefully it's not that. "completely made up" is a strong word, and OP cites a source. However, reading (part of) that source, I get the strong impression that both interviewer and interviewee were fitting anecdotes into a preconceived narrative. There is a lot of speculation and gazing at headstones, and little mention of trying to get at the underlying numbers: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fdennikn.sk%2F953687%2Fako-evanjelici-sami-seba-na-juhu-stredneho-slovenska-takmer-vyhubili%2F https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=h...
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > A second or third hand account of his great-grandmother leaving her farm, It's his great-grandmother and his family. I imagine he would know a thing or two about the culture, history and customs. Besides the particular story of the great-grandmother seems to just be a side story and background used to introduce the topic. > protestant Slovaks had a particular penchant for sex with farm animals Seems like that was misread. There were rumors of that happening because there was a cultural element encouraging having fewer children, so abstinence and various rituals around it became popular. I don't think reproductive and sex rituals are uncommon and strange. And we didn't invent strange sex stuff because internet is around. People were raunchy and sex obsessed before as well. I don't think that needs rigorous sources. > both interviewer and interviewee were fitting anecdotes into a preconceived narrative. It seems they still have more information and experience to draw from than an average HN'er here. If you just want to say, "I personally dislike that culture or ritual or theory", that's a fine thing. I can say I dislike spaghetti and like hamburgers more as well. But if you're trying to convince others that the presented story is wrong, then either a personal account would work (you live there, heard the stories, experience them), or even better if you have decent sources. Your source didn't quite do it and it's silly to ask the author or others to go dig more sources to prove their case.
  - microtherion 9y ago
    > It's his great-grandmother and his family. I imagine he would know a thing or two about the culture, history and customs. My reading of OP is that he does not claim to have understood these until he read the source. And neither he nor his sources seem to have any grasp of the underlying economics. The underlying narrative of a prosperous society that collapsed because nobody was available to work the fields is extremely dubious. OP mentions that there is 30% unemployment in the region. Why can't they STILL get anyone to work the fields (Not to mention the massive productivity improvements that agriculture has gone through)? > I don't think reproductive and sex rituals are uncommon and strange. [...] I don't think that needs rigorous sources. I don't think these are uncommon at all (especially the premarital sex on which the interview frowns so much)... which is precisely why I doubt their causal link to the observed depopulation. > It seems they still have more information and experience to draw from than an average HN'er here. If they do, why don't they share that information, instead of talking about sex with farm animals and premarital relations? Even through the language barrier of the translation, the moral panic is evident. > If you just want to say, "I personally dislike that culture or ritual or theory" I do dislike the theory. It's a rancid mix of natalism and moral panic. I do NOT dislike the culture. It's the OP and his sources who are claiming that Protestant Slovaks sheep shagged themselves to extinction. My baseline is that everybody has traditions, rituals, and the occasional dysfunction, so any contention that a particular set of these led to disaster needs to be backed by data, not anecdotes.