11 ms·

What to Do When a Patient Has a 'Do Not Resuscitate' Tattoo

38 points by jansho 9y ago

lev99 9y ago
I wish that these tattoos carried as much weight as a paper DNR. People that prefer DNR currently have no way to express their wishes when outside of a health care facility.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  It looks like a bracelet is enough depending upon the jurisdiction in the United States. For example in New York - https://www.health.ny.gov/professionals/ems/policy/99-10.htm https://www.health.ny.gov/professionals/ems/policy/99-10.htm
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  Did you read the article: > And there’s good reason to be cautious. Back in 2012, Lori Cooper at the California Pacific Medical Center was caring for a (conscious) patient who was going to have a leg amputated, when she noticed a “DNR” tattoo on his chest. The man revealed that he got the tattoo after losing a poker bet many years ago, and actually, he would very much like to be resuscitated if the need arose. “It was suggested that he consider tattoo removal to circumvent future confusion about his code status,” Cooper wrote. “He stated he did not think anyone would take his tattoo seriously and declined tattoo removal.”
  - jstanley 9y ago
    Well that guy's an idiot then. That one guy is an idiot shouldn't prevent anyone else from declaring a near-permanent DNR... He should have it covered up if he doesn't mean it.
    - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
      I agree he's an idiot. I'm just saying there are some reasons to consider tattooed DNRs invalid. While the guy, in this case, could have obviously covered up his tattoo prior to his scheduled surgery (permanently or temporarily), what if he had been in an unexpected accident? I don't have any tattoos but a quick google says removal is expensive too. I guess you could have someone tattoo over it, but, in the article, they mention a man who had come from a nursing facility. I'm not sure how practical it is to suggest he should have had it removed/covered up prior. I like the basis of killjoywashere's suggestion, but, in a more centralized way that would allow you to register your intentions in a way that hospitals could easily check on your desires and status.
    - Frondo 9y ago
      It's hard to think of a better example of a candidate for the Darwin Awards than the guy who gets a DNR tattoo and thinks "no one will take it seriously."
    - xg15 9y ago
      Why is he an idiot? The tatoo is not legally binding. It never was. As stated in the article, it can't even give the kind of reassurance that is required by law (indication of rational descision) Why should he have expected that it works?
      - rhizome 9y ago
        Regardless of whether it's legally binding, what we see here is an anecdote where there was a delay in treatment. Why should he expect that it would be ignored? People get serious tattoos all the time: https://www.google.com/search?q=medic+alert+bracelet+tattoo https://www.google.com/search?q=medic+alert+bracelet+tattoo
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
        Because, at least, it's going to confuse medical staff and delay treatment. In a critical care situation, seconds matter.
    - kswahl1 9y ago
      As a Firefighter/EMT, protocols are very clear in on what’s considered a valid DNR. This would cause zero confusion on scene.
- rlpb 9y ago
  I'm not so sure. How does one authenticate the tattoo? How can one be certain that the tattoo really does represent the patient's wishes? A paper DNR has a paper trail that permits authentication. A tattoo does not.
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    Paper DNR is easier to fake than a tattoo DNR.
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  Well, in one interpretation of the article, if you want the tattoo to be taken seriously you have to have it done on a yellow background. :-) However, carrying a POLST form on you at all times would seem easier, even if you wore it in a locket around your neck.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  If you really don't want to be resuscitated in the US, you should instead tattoo a notice that you will not assume financial responsibility for any medical procedure performed under the aegis of implied consent. Make sure to inform your friends and family, so they can record any interactions between hospital administration and the physicians and nurses, in order to post the fruit of your epic trolling to the public network.
killjoywashere 9y ago
I think I might get a similar tattoo, but with a URL, QR code, and a chip. The url and QR code will point to a github repo with my DNR. Which I will sign with a "No really, I mean it" statement that is cryptographically signed, maybe once a day, once a week, something like that. The chip will also have the key to authenticate the git signatures. And, in the DNR, I will have directions to contact my pre-paid attorney, with further direction to summon them to the ICU and make sure my wishes are carried out.
- hhmc 9y ago
  That sounds completely intractable in an emergency situation.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    Perhaps it could be an embedded computer with a small display just under his skin that asks each morning whether he'd like to be resuscitated that day and records his response. If it detects that he has become unconscious (because his pulse has stopped?) it could display a bold "DNR" on the display, and possibly play some audio to that effect as well. It actually seems like it would only take an order of magnitude or 2 of miniaturisation before this is an easy weekend project...
    - pc86 9y ago
      Or you can just file a normal DNR through the normal process like a normal person.
      - killjoywashere 9y ago
        But I'm a doctor, and know how eager my colleagues are to blow past a DNR. The attorney thing has actually been deployed in practice.
        pc86 9y ago
        So when someone is in cardiac arrest and they have a URL and QR code tattoo you're going to stop treatment while you debug their shitcode to figure out whether it's even relevant to what's happening?
tomatsu 9y ago
There are probably some people who go with the DNR route because the healthcare system isn't that great in the US. They might prefer being 6 feet under over being crushed by debt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt > 70 million Americans either have difficulty paying for medical treatment or have medical debt.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Depending on age, its always possible to just skip and start over? Preferable to being dead.
- crispyambulance 9y ago
  The main reason to go DNR is for quality of life concerns. Once an elderly person has already been impaired by a stroke or some other chronic condition, adding more "medicalized" life-extension on top of that is cruel. 24-7 skilled nursing care is a miserable way to exist, regardless of who pays the US ~ $10K/month bill.
- criddell 9y ago
  RadioLab did an interesting podcast on DNR orders: http://www.radiolab.org/story/262588-bitter-end/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/262588-bitter-end/ I think people don't go the DNR route because their understanding of outcomes (from something like CPR) comes from television. Reality is much worse.
sp332 9y ago
The majority of suicide attempts are driven by temporary situations. Postponing a suicide attempt usually means the person will reconsider. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923 Are there any such studies on people reconsidering their DNR?
- sigzero 9y ago
  I believe there was at least one person that had a tattoo but "didn't think people would considerate it serious because he wasn't". I would side on "be cautious" when a life is at stake. If you're serious...fill out the damn paperwork.
  - sp332 9y ago
    But it's a similar problem even with paperwork - someone might realize, while they're in a life-threatening situation, that they'd rather not have the DNR. I was just wondering if it's really any different from suicide.
michaelt 9y ago
“Paper gets lost, and some people do not trust paper. This man may have been trying to safeguard against that He was wise to distrust, as it turns out, given that they decided to temporarily ignore the tattoo despite the fact there was a valid form on file for him.
- xg15 9y ago
  ...while they were unsure that the paper existed.
- katet 9y ago
  Given that he was "He was alone and had no identification.", I don't find that particularly malicious on their part. If I _was_ stupid enough to get a DNR tattoo without being totally serious (like the 2012 fellow mentioned in the article), I would hope they take the time to find out who I am and where my file is first.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Taking the time means killing people, though.
xg15 9y ago
So, if I work in a tatoo parlor and don't like someone, I can just tatoo DNR on their back and let things sort themselves out?
user5994461 9y ago
It's a trivial legal question. The answer is that you resuscitate right now, without any hesitation. You don't want to explain to the judge that you let someone die because of a stupid tatoo, that may very well come from 10 years ago.
- criddell 9y ago
  A 10 year old tattoo can be easily covered up or altered if the person changes their mind. This tattoo was clear and explicit and contained a signature. There wasn't any ambiguity. Would you say the same thing about a 10-year old signed card in their wallet?
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    Yeah. You can assist them to suicide in certain jurisdictions, if they want to end it. It's pretty hard to resuscitate back to life after they've been dead, and put in the freezer for half a day. The ugly fact is this comes down to a pure legal choice: Was the appropriate legal work done for the DNR? If not, ignore and save them. A live person dealing with legal is better than a dead person's family dealing with legal.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    [let's ignore the specific case from this article for a minute] Let's say that you are unconscious and stopped breathing. Your brain is deprived of oxygen. Within 3 minutes, the brain cells will start dying and you will suffer irremediable permanent damage, within 10 minutes, you will be effectively dead all things considered. What do you do? Do you look for a wallet and the cards inside it?
  - Lon7 9y ago
    I know I guy who has "Rape Me" tattooed on his chest. It's his favorite Nirvana Song. For the most part, tattoos are a form of art and expression. Phrases such as "death wish" or "kill me" are pretty common, and are absolutely not meant as instructions. The idea of DNR is pretty popular in certain artistic circles. There is an incredible amount of ambiguity in this situation.
divbit 9y ago
[If I put a do not resuscitate tatoo on my blind friend is that a paddling](philosoraptor.gif)

38 points by jansho 9y ago

I wish that these tattoos carried as much weight as a paper DNR. People that prefer DNR currently have no way to express their wishes when outside of a health care facility.

stevenwoo 9y ago
It looks like a bracelet is enough depending upon the jurisdiction in the United States. For example in New York - https://www.health.ny.gov/professionals/ems/policy/99-10.htm https://www.health.ny.gov/professionals/ems/policy/99-10.htm
AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
Did you read the article: > And there’s good reason to be cautious. Back in 2012, Lori Cooper at the California Pacific Medical Center was caring for a (conscious) patient who was going to have a leg amputated, when she noticed a “DNR” tattoo on his chest. The man revealed that he got the tattoo after losing a poker bet many years ago, and actually, he would very much like to be resuscitated if the need arose. “It was suggested that he consider tattoo removal to circumvent future confusion about his code status,” Cooper wrote. “He stated he did not think anyone would take his tattoo seriously and declined tattoo removal.”
- jstanley 9y ago
  Well that guy's an idiot then. That one guy is an idiot shouldn't prevent anyone else from declaring a near-permanent DNR... He should have it covered up if he doesn't mean it.
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    I agree he's an idiot. I'm just saying there are some reasons to consider tattooed DNRs invalid. While the guy, in this case, could have obviously covered up his tattoo prior to his scheduled surgery (permanently or temporarily), what if he had been in an unexpected accident? I don't have any tattoos but a quick google says removal is expensive too. I guess you could have someone tattoo over it, but, in the article, they mention a man who had come from a nursing facility. I'm not sure how practical it is to suggest he should have had it removed/covered up prior. I like the basis of killjoywashere's suggestion, but, in a more centralized way that would allow you to register your intentions in a way that hospitals could easily check on your desires and status.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    It's hard to think of a better example of a candidate for the Darwin Awards than the guy who gets a DNR tattoo and thinks "no one will take it seriously."
  - xg15 9y ago
    Why is he an idiot? The tatoo is not legally binding. It never was. As stated in the article, it can't even give the kind of reassurance that is required by law (indication of rational descision) Why should he have expected that it works?
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Regardless of whether it's legally binding, what we see here is an anecdote where there was a delay in treatment. Why should he expect that it would be ignored? People get serious tattoos all the time: https://www.google.com/search?q=medic+alert+bracelet+tattoo https://www.google.com/search?q=medic+alert+bracelet+tattoo
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
      Because, at least, it's going to confuse medical staff and delay treatment. In a critical care situation, seconds matter.
  - kswahl1 9y ago
    As a Firefighter/EMT, protocols are very clear in on what’s considered a valid DNR. This would cause zero confusion on scene.
rlpb 9y ago
I'm not so sure. How does one authenticate the tattoo? How can one be certain that the tattoo really does represent the patient's wishes? A paper DNR has a paper trail that permits authentication. A tattoo does not.
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  Paper DNR is easier to fake than a tattoo DNR.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
Well, in one interpretation of the article, if you want the tattoo to be taken seriously you have to have it done on a yellow background. :-) However, carrying a POLST form on you at all times would seem easier, even if you wore it in a locket around your neck.
logfromblammo 9y ago
If you really don't want to be resuscitated in the US, you should instead tattoo a notice that you will not assume financial responsibility for any medical procedure performed under the aegis of implied consent. Make sure to inform your friends and family, so they can record any interactions between hospital administration and the physicians and nurses, in order to post the fruit of your epic trolling to the public network.

killjoywashere 9y ago

I think I might get a similar tattoo, but with a URL, QR code, and a chip. The url and QR code will point to a github repo with my DNR. Which I will sign with a "No really, I mean it" statement that is cryptographically signed, maybe once a day, once a week, something like that. The chip will also have the key to authenticate the git signatures. And, in the DNR, I will have directions to contact my pre-paid attorney, with further direction to summon them to the ICU and make sure my wishes are carried out.

hhmc 9y ago
That sounds completely intractable in an emergency situation.
- jstanley 9y ago
  Perhaps it could be an embedded computer with a small display just under his skin that asks each morning whether he'd like to be resuscitated that day and records his response. If it detects that he has become unconscious (because his pulse has stopped?) it could display a bold "DNR" on the display, and possibly play some audio to that effect as well. It actually seems like it would only take an order of magnitude or 2 of miniaturisation before this is an easy weekend project...
  - pc86 9y ago
    Or you can just file a normal DNR through the normal process like a normal person.
    - killjoywashere 9y ago
      But I'm a doctor, and know how eager my colleagues are to blow past a DNR. The attorney thing has actually been deployed in practice.
      - pc86 9y ago
        So when someone is in cardiac arrest and they have a URL and QR code tattoo you're going to stop treatment while you debug their shitcode to figure out whether it's even relevant to what's happening?

tomatsu 9y ago

There are probably some people who go with the DNR route because the healthcare system isn't that great in the US. They might prefer being 6 feet under over being crushed by debt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_debt > 70 million Americans either have difficulty paying for medical treatment or have medical debt.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JoeAltmaier 9y ago
Depending on age, its always possible to just skip and start over? Preferable to being dead.
crispyambulance 9y ago
The main reason to go DNR is for quality of life concerns. Once an elderly person has already been impaired by a stroke or some other chronic condition, adding more "medicalized" life-extension on top of that is cruel. 24-7 skilled nursing care is a miserable way to exist, regardless of who pays the US ~ $10K/month bill.
criddell 9y ago
RadioLab did an interesting podcast on DNR orders: http://www.radiolab.org/story/262588-bitter-end/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/262588-bitter-end/ I think people don't go the DNR route because their understanding of outcomes (from something like CPR) comes from television. Reality is much worse.

sp332 9y ago

The majority of suicide attempts are driven by temporary situations. Postponing a suicide attempt usually means the person will reconsider. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923 Are there any such studies on people reconsidering their DNR?

sigzero 9y ago
I believe there was at least one person that had a tattoo but "didn't think people would considerate it serious because he wasn't". I would side on "be cautious" when a life is at stake. If you're serious...fill out the damn paperwork.
- sp332 9y ago
  But it's a similar problem even with paperwork - someone might realize, while they're in a life-threatening situation, that they'd rather not have the DNR. I was just wondering if it's really any different from suicide.

michaelt 9y ago

“Paper gets lost, and some people do not trust paper. This man may have been trying to safeguard against that He was wise to distrust, as it turns out, given that they decided to temporarily ignore the tattoo despite the fact there was a valid form on file for him.

xg15 9y ago
...while they were unsure that the paper existed.
katet 9y ago
Given that he was "He was alone and had no identification.", I don't find that particularly malicious on their part. If I _was_ stupid enough to get a DNR tattoo without being totally serious (like the 2012 fellow mentioned in the article), I would hope they take the time to find out who I am and where my file is first.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  Taking the time means killing people, though.

xg15 9y ago

So, if I work in a tatoo parlor and don't like someone, I can just tatoo DNR on their back and let things sort themselves out?

user5994461 9y ago

It's a trivial legal question. The answer is that you resuscitate right now, without any hesitation. You don't want to explain to the judge that you let someone die because of a stupid tatoo, that may very well come from 10 years ago.

criddell 9y ago
A 10 year old tattoo can be easily covered up or altered if the person changes their mind. This tattoo was clear and explicit and contained a signature. There wasn't any ambiguity. Would you say the same thing about a 10-year old signed card in their wallet?
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  Yeah. You can assist them to suicide in certain jurisdictions, if they want to end it. It's pretty hard to resuscitate back to life after they've been dead, and put in the freezer for half a day. The ugly fact is this comes down to a pure legal choice: Was the appropriate legal work done for the DNR? If not, ignore and save them. A live person dealing with legal is better than a dead person's family dealing with legal.
- user5994461 9y ago
  [let's ignore the specific case from this article for a minute] Let's say that you are unconscious and stopped breathing. Your brain is deprived of oxygen. Within 3 minutes, the brain cells will start dying and you will suffer irremediable permanent damage, within 10 minutes, you will be effectively dead all things considered. What do you do? Do you look for a wallet and the cards inside it?
- Lon7 9y ago
  I know I guy who has "Rape Me" tattooed on his chest. It's his favorite Nirvana Song. For the most part, tattoos are a form of art and expression. Phrases such as "death wish" or "kill me" are pretty common, and are absolutely not meant as instructions. The idea of DNR is pretty popular in certain artistic circles. There is an incredible amount of ambiguity in this situation.

divbit 9y ago

[If I put a do not resuscitate tatoo on my blind friend is that a paddling](philosoraptor.gif)