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One of the problems of US is the fact that protesting is virtually impossible. Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC for two weeks, no one will

One of the problems of US is the fact that protesting is virtually impossible. Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC for two weeks, no one will care. Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level. Also The general lack of public spaces makes it hard. And the fact that the police cracks down pretty hard on things after the first display of some sort of "disobedience". Look at the photos from protests in like France. Shit on fire, people throwing shit, but the police doesn't shoot them. Dystopian police state here we come. Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future.

rl3 9y ago
>Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future. This is my hope as well. I mean, if the future is going to be one big dysoptian hellscape, then I feel that having a cyberpunk noir metropolis to play around in would be only fair.
maciejgryka 9y ago
If you want to understand why protesting can be inneffective, I highly recommend "Twitter and Tear Gas" by Zeynep Tufekci (https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ with CC version available - but buy it!). One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  > One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning. Indeed. Furthermore an angry mob literally at the foot steps of the capitol. For a month. Angry as shit crowd. They need to pass through you. There aren't enough cops to arrest all of you in the entirety of the DC area. Don't break laws though. Wait for them to do that. Furthermore, I've been intrigued by Vaclav Havels (there were more people involved) idea of Parallel Polis. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-lessons-on-how-to-create-a-parallel-polis https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-le... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis Basically slowly create a parallel government that offers competing services. You can start small. Offer healthcare at competitive price for those who pay you "taxes". If I could pay two grand a year and get some perks (some sort of healthcare and over time more) out of it I would definitely consider it. Provide accredited education (over internet? idk). I believe having read somewhere that the US legal framework allows for this if you establish yourself as a Native American tribe as they can get out of quite a few obligations to the state and federal governments.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    There is merit to this idea and it has the potential to be highly effective but also highly destablizing, in both positive and negative ways.
    - adamnemecek 9y ago
      Some destabilization is possibly needed. Like you have to raise to rebuild.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        I quite agree but if I were to go into detail about my thoughts on this it would quickly be flagged into invisibility :) You're welcome to drop me a line.
shams93 9y ago
The thing is protest has been criminalized. The people who protested Trump's inauguration are facing what amounts to life in federal prison. Yes there was one car damaged but the Nazis who's protest lead to the death of that young woman face no charges.
- briandear 9y ago
  And the Baltimore rioters? Police actually let them destroy property. And who is facing life in prison protesting the Trump inauguration? And what was the purpose of protesting the inauguration? I get it you are MAD and you want to break things. But did you vote? How many of those protesters did? Statistically, very few. You get the government you deserve.
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    "who is facing life in prison protesting the Trump inauguration?" Here you go: "More than 200 people who were arrested on Trump’s inauguration day risk up to 60 years of jail. Meanwhile, the white supremacists in Charlottesville walk free" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/22/donald-trump-administration-punishing-dissent-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/22/donald...
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    You may not be aware that people are being charged not so much with breaking things but being part of a crowd in which some people broke things. And yes, the potential sentences run into decades despite the extremely minor nature of the property damage. A slanted editorial but one grounded in fact rather than a particular ideology: http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/12/01/j20-defendants-face-a-miscarriage-of-justice/ http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/12/01/j20-defendants-face-a-...
WillPostForFood 9y ago
This bill doesn't fundamentally change very much besides the corporate tax rate, so the explosive reaction seems unnecessary. You aren't going to get a million people in the street because their tax bill went up, or down, several hundred dollars, which is what this amounts to for most people.
- djur 9y ago
  It changes a lot more than that. Although we don't know precisely what, because the House and Senate bills need to be reconciled (or the House will just pass the Senate bill) and the Senate bill was literally written on the floor tonight. Nobody has done a serious analysis of its effects. What we do know suggests that it will increase the uninsured rate substantially, increase the deficit dramatically, and trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and other programs.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    increase the uninsured rate substantially If people choose to drop insurance because they aren't mandated to buy it, then it is on them increase the deficit dramatically certainly true trigger automatic cuts to Medicare This is the only reason I'm replying, because there is no way that it will happen. No one wants cuts, and it would be political poison. Claiming it is fear mongering (not you, but the people using it to attack the bill). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg
    - djur 9y ago
      Mitch McConnell's word is worth nothing. Republicans are already talking about "entitlement reform", aka cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Any hope that the GOP will avoid a particular course of action because it's "political suicide" should be dead and buried after the last year. As for the uninsured rate, eliminating the mandate will not only cause people to voluntarily drop insurance but also involuntarily push people out of insurance due to the resulting increase in premiums. That's what happens when you kick out one of the legs of a three-legged stool.
AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
> Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level. Sure, if you're trying to effect change on a federal level. Do you think that marching in a small town in France or Egypt would have a different effect? Marching in your town is worth it for changing laws in your town, or possibly your county. Protesting at the state capital would be effective for changing laws in your state. Protesting in DC would be effective for changing the laws in the country. Is any of that surprising? Edit: I suppose it is a little surprising as the US and Canada are the only two 'free' countries as big as we are that allow protesting in any real capacity. China and Russia are out of that category (China pretty much always, Russia for most of recent history.) It does make protesting more difficult than in smaller countries, but what's the alternative? Every single protest in every city should be recognized by the federal government?
- AckSyn 9y ago
  It is very much surprising considering it never worked for either Korea or Vietnam wars.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> protesting is virtually impossible I call my state and federal representatives and have built rapport with their SLAs. I find my input valued and well considered. My district is a densely-populated one in Manhattan. Work brings me to the Bay Area, where I also conference with representatives. I am usually the only person calling or caring about most technical issues. The problem isn't imagined bans on peaceful protest. It is apathy, laziness and an unwillingness to independently engage.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  As an activist (both on the street and in legislative fora) that's garbage. People absolutely work on all phases of the democratic process here.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > As an activist that's garbage What’s garbage? > People absolutely work on all phases of the democratic process here One, which here? Two, I think we are saying the same thing. (OP said “protesting is virtually impossible.” I said that impossibility is a myth.)
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      Garbage saying that people are apathetic and lazy. Here in the Bay Area.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        Sorry if I offended you. When I speak to our Bay Area representatives about privacy, Internet regulation and related commercial matters, I’m usually alone. Few are politically involved, in the Bay Area, on non-social topics.
        anigbrowl 9y ago
        Thanks for the clarification. Considering the existence of the EFF and the lobbying ability of all the large tech firms, I'm not that surprised if grassroots lobbying is a bit thin on the ground on such topics. I know that people show up to lobby on privacy issues at city council meetings here in Oakland.
eclectic 9y ago
What do you want to demand? More taxes? You do not need police state. You are living in an Orwellian state of mind!
briandear 9y ago
Protest what? Trump could pardon a turkey and it would seem to inspire riots.
benevol 9y ago
> protesting is virtually impossible And look how fast the discussion of an issue (this post) of this gravity is quickly flagged into invisibility.
quadcore 9y ago
> Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC Im no expert but it seems to me its pretty doable. In France, we sometimes have 2 million people protesting.

rl3 9y ago

>Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future. This is my hope as well. I mean, if the future is going to be one big dysoptian hellscape, then I feel that having a cyberpunk noir metropolis to play around in would be only fair.

maciejgryka 9y ago

If you want to understand why protesting can be inneffective, I highly recommend "Twitter and Tear Gas" by Zeynep Tufekci (https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ with CC version available - but buy it!). One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning.

adamnemecek 9y ago
> One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning. Indeed. Furthermore an angry mob literally at the foot steps of the capitol. For a month. Angry as shit crowd. They need to pass through you. There aren't enough cops to arrest all of you in the entirety of the DC area. Don't break laws though. Wait for them to do that. Furthermore, I've been intrigued by Vaclav Havels (there were more people involved) idea of Parallel Polis. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-lessons-on-how-to-create-a-parallel-polis https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-le... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis Basically slowly create a parallel government that offers competing services. You can start small. Offer healthcare at competitive price for those who pay you "taxes". If I could pay two grand a year and get some perks (some sort of healthcare and over time more) out of it I would definitely consider it. Provide accredited education (over internet? idk). I believe having read somewhere that the US legal framework allows for this if you establish yourself as a Native American tribe as they can get out of quite a few obligations to the state and federal governments.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  There is merit to this idea and it has the potential to be highly effective but also highly destablizing, in both positive and negative ways.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    Some destabilization is possibly needed. Like you have to raise to rebuild.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      I quite agree but if I were to go into detail about my thoughts on this it would quickly be flagged into invisibility :) You're welcome to drop me a line.

shams93 9y ago

The thing is protest has been criminalized. The people who protested Trump's inauguration are facing what amounts to life in federal prison. Yes there was one car damaged but the Nazis who's protest lead to the death of that young woman face no charges.

briandear 9y ago
And the Baltimore rioters? Police actually let them destroy property. And who is facing life in prison protesting the Trump inauguration? And what was the purpose of protesting the inauguration? I get it you are MAD and you want to break things. But did you vote? How many of those protesters did? Statistically, very few. You get the government you deserve.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "who is facing life in prison protesting the Trump inauguration?" Here you go: "More than 200 people who were arrested on Trump’s inauguration day risk up to 60 years of jail. Meanwhile, the white supremacists in Charlottesville walk free" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/22/donald-trump-administration-punishing-dissent-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/22/donald...
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  You may not be aware that people are being charged not so much with breaking things but being part of a crowd in which some people broke things. And yes, the potential sentences run into decades despite the extremely minor nature of the property damage. A slanted editorial but one grounded in fact rather than a particular ideology: http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/12/01/j20-defendants-face-a-miscarriage-of-justice/ http://georgetownvoice.com/2017/12/01/j20-defendants-face-a-...

WillPostForFood 9y ago

This bill doesn't fundamentally change very much besides the corporate tax rate, so the explosive reaction seems unnecessary. You aren't going to get a million people in the street because their tax bill went up, or down, several hundred dollars, which is what this amounts to for most people.

djur 9y ago
It changes a lot more than that. Although we don't know precisely what, because the House and Senate bills need to be reconciled (or the House will just pass the Senate bill) and the Senate bill was literally written on the floor tonight. Nobody has done a serious analysis of its effects. What we do know suggests that it will increase the uninsured rate substantially, increase the deficit dramatically, and trigger automatic cuts to Medicare and other programs.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  increase the uninsured rate substantially If people choose to drop insurance because they aren't mandated to buy it, then it is on them increase the deficit dramatically certainly true trigger automatic cuts to Medicare This is the only reason I'm replying, because there is no way that it will happen. No one wants cuts, and it would be political poison. Claiming it is fear mongering (not you, but the people using it to attack the bill). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP_dYbWW4AA0-8h.jpg
  - djur 9y ago
    Mitch McConnell's word is worth nothing. Republicans are already talking about "entitlement reform", aka cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Any hope that the GOP will avoid a particular course of action because it's "political suicide" should be dead and buried after the last year. As for the uninsured rate, eliminating the mandate will not only cause people to voluntarily drop insurance but also involuntarily push people out of insurance due to the resulting increase in premiums. That's what happens when you kick out one of the legs of a three-legged stool.

AnkhMorporkian 9y ago

> Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level. Sure, if you're trying to effect change on a federal level. Do you think that marching in a small town in France or Egypt would have a different effect? Marching in your town is worth it for changing laws in your town, or possibly your county. Protesting at the state capital would be effective for changing laws in your state. Protesting in DC would be effective for changing the laws in the country. Is any of that surprising? Edit: I suppose it is a little surprising as the US and Canada are the only two 'free' countries as big as we are that allow protesting in any real capacity. China and Russia are out of that category (China pretty much always, Russia for most of recent history.) It does make protesting more difficult than in smaller countries, but what's the alternative? Every single protest in every city should be recognized by the federal government?

AckSyn 9y ago
It is very much surprising considering it never worked for either Korea or Vietnam wars.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> protesting is virtually impossible I call my state and federal representatives and have built rapport with their SLAs. I find my input valued and well considered. My district is a densely-populated one in Manhattan. Work brings me to the Bay Area, where I also conference with representatives. I am usually the only person calling or caring about most technical issues. The problem isn't imagined bans on peaceful protest. It is apathy, laziness and an unwillingness to independently engage.

anigbrowl 9y ago
As an activist (both on the street and in legislative fora) that's garbage. People absolutely work on all phases of the democratic process here.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > As an activist that's garbage What’s garbage? > People absolutely work on all phases of the democratic process here One, which here? Two, I think we are saying the same thing. (OP said “protesting is virtually impossible.” I said that impossibility is a myth.)
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Garbage saying that people are apathetic and lazy. Here in the Bay Area.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      Sorry if I offended you. When I speak to our Bay Area representatives about privacy, Internet regulation and related commercial matters, I’m usually alone. Few are politically involved, in the Bay Area, on non-social topics.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        Thanks for the clarification. Considering the existence of the EFF and the lobbying ability of all the large tech firms, I'm not that surprised if grassroots lobbying is a bit thin on the ground on such topics. I know that people show up to lobby on privacy issues at city council meetings here in Oakland.

eclectic 9y ago

What do you want to demand? More taxes? You do not need police state. You are living in an Orwellian state of mind!

briandear 9y ago

Protest what? Trump could pardon a turkey and it would seem to inspire riots.

benevol 9y ago

> protesting is virtually impossible And look how fast the discussion of an issue (this post) of this gravity is quickly flagged into invisibility.

quadcore 9y ago

> Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC Im no expert but it seems to me its pretty doable. In France, we sometimes have 2 million people protesting.