8 ms·

US Senate passes sweeping tax overhaul bill

80 points by benevol 9y ago

ktt8943 9y ago
This bill is rural state senators and large corporations robbing middle class in industrialized areas.
deleted 9y ago
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benevol 9y ago
I know it takes 100°C for water to boil, but how much does the US need? Keep in mind, Trump is not the source of the problem, he is one of the (reinforcing) symptoms of a host of underlying systemic societal issues.
domoritz 9y ago
It's sickening how large corporations make more and more money but pay almost no taxes because (through the money) they have so much influence on politics.
- ansible 9y ago
  And yet corporations have many of the same rights as people do these days.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  One of the main reasons large corporations pay no tax is that they hide the money in other countries with lower corporate tax rates. You can argue that it is a race to the bottom, or ineffective for other reasons, but the lower corporate tax rate is an attempt to deal with the issue, and get a cut of that money, albeit at a lower rate.
  - dingaling 9y ago
    But if private citizens were able to park their income offshore I am fairly sure the response wouldn't be to lower income taxes.
    - ithkuil 9y ago
      Aren't there agreements between the US and other countries that prevents or limits double taxation for private citizens? Is there anything analogous for companies?
    - WillPostForFood 9y ago
      It is a matter of complexity, and quantity. Wealthy private citizens do park money offshore via trusts and other mechanisms. It wouldn't be a good trade-off to lower tax rates to lure it back, because it is at such a smaller scale than the corporate parking.
  - mcny 9y ago
    I think we need to talk about this in more detail. Let's say some company like Google has income all across the world. People click ads in Germany. Some German company pays Google €1. Google doesn't want to pay US taxes on it. It "parks" this money in Germany. I think that's different from let's say some American company has some income $100 from another American company. But we set up a fake company in a tax free country and says we had to spend $100 in "intellectual property" thus our profit is zero so we don't pay taxes. I am not an accountant so please correct me if I am wrong in these scenarios. I don't quite understand tax policy to be honest. For example: tax rate. Is it really just random numbers that people agree on? It just doesn't seem any of this is based on science. More like everyone is trying to get what they can. Here is another one: if I click an ad on Google for Google Chrome, does Google pay itself for the ad amount? If so, do they owe sales tax on that transaction? How foes this work? Is it possible for us to tax revenue instead of taxing profits (perhaps at a lower rate)? I think part of our problem is our addiction to deductions and credits. If people want to simplify the tax code, we should try to eliminate deductions and credits.
    - WillPostForFood 9y ago
      The New York times walks through an example using Apple and iTunes. It is much worse than example of parking a Euro in the country it was earned. For instance, one of Apple’s subsidiaries in Luxembourg, named iTunes S.à r.l., has just a few dozen employees, according to corporate documents filed in that nation and a current executive. The only indication of the subsidiary’s presence outside is a letterbox with a lopsided slip of paper reading “ITUNES SARL.” Luxembourg has just half a million residents. But when customers across Europe, Africa or the Middle East — and potentially elsewhere — download a song, television show or app, the sale is recorded in this small country, according to current and former executives. In 2011, iTunes S.à r.l.’s revenue exceeded $1 billion, according to an Apple executive, representing roughly 20 percent of iTunes’s worldwide sales. The advantages of Luxembourg are simple, say Apple executives. The country has promised to tax the payments collected by Apple and numerous other tech corporations at low rates if they route transactions through Luxembourg. Taxes that would have otherwise gone to the governments of Britain, France, the United States and dozens of other nations go to Luxembourg instead, at discounted rates. And that's the simple part, read the "Double Irish" section, which is an even worse tactic. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strate...
- thescribe 9y ago
  I'm coming from a very opposite perspective. All corporate taxes are silly, just tax the people that make income.
InclinedPlane 9y ago
This will go down in history as one of the most grotesque things to ever have happened in American politics. And that's saying a lot, there is some stiff competition for sure.
TAForObvReasons 9y ago
For those who didn't watch the proceedings, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg was one of the actual pages of the bill, quite literally handwritten scribbled margin notes.
- francamps 9y ago
  Source?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - swang 9y ago
    https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/936738041087037440 https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/936738041087037440 edit: https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/status/936748480000921600 https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/status/936748480000921600
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    S/he gave you a source. If you don't think it's adequate you should say why. PBS has a good reputation for veracity.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- mino 9y ago
  I saw that image popping up in my twitter feed, but I just assumed it was a parody :|
lancewiggs 9y ago
The law making process is so clearly broken. I see this as a contributing factor to the long gradual decline of the role of the USA in the world. The reemergence of China should be engendering a positive spirit of lifting the game, not a money grabbing exercise. If you can’t make evidence based laws for the people then society will be warped into some dysfunctional dystopian end game.
- mbaha 9y ago
  Following your logic, China is better off because instead of having one party protesting but failing to reject a law promoted by the elections-winning other party, it's just better to have one single party control everything. Sorry but I find this just mindblowing.
  - Alacart 9y ago
    The parent comment is saying that the economic success of China should be encouraging America to step it's game up, not that it should become a single party system.
    - mbaha 9y ago
      I'd argue that berating economic success as the main metric for measuring a country's success is precisely what is slowly but surely eroding the West's precious institutions. Since when people just want to live comfortable lives and leave their collective fate to be decided by a minority whose interests do not necessarily align with the people's interests (otherwise, they would just allow fair elections). Small example: of course, country-wide surveillance à la China would lead to "economic success", do you think it's criticized because it would lead to mass poverty ? It would lead to a perfectly stable future for the population, with ever improving quality of life and security. The problem, as you may guess, lies elsewhere.
  - beisner 9y ago
    I’d be the first to say there are a bunch of serious problems posed by the one-party system in China, but getting important projects done quickly is not one of them.
sytelus 9y ago
I have been watching comments on NYTimes and Fox News and what surprised was not a single person (out of couple of thousands) actually estimated their tax bill and compared. There is one calculator out here (which might not be accurate because of changes): https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calculator https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calcula... I used it to arrive at following numbers. If this tax calculator is right then there is indeed ~$10K tax cut for everyone in middle class and above: $750K->$236,950 to $212,060 350K->$81,595 to $72,060 250K->$47,701 to $38,900 150K->$17,778 to $9900 50K->$548 to 0 On the other hand this NYTimes analysis says that lower and middle class cuts are tiny but people with $1M or more just get huge cut: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/senate-tax-plan-analysis.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/s... Also, according to above analysis poor people will be taxed more than before after 10 years! So overall at this point I think computing impact remains very hazy given all kind of conflicting information. But one thing for sure, rich people are the major winner here given much higher cuts + no or less death tax. Warren Buffet had said that common strategy they used during Bush era was to give $400 one time check to everyone so they are happy while sneaking in millions of dollars of recurring tax cuts for the rich in form of capital gains. I wish US had Swiss style public referendums where people can demand to vote on legislation and overthrow any legislation they wished.
- KVFinn 9y ago
  The U.S Bureau of the Census has the annual real median personal income at $31,099 in 2016. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
- tymmc 9y ago
  The reality is that no-one really understand the consequences of the bill. It's a gigantic shit-pile of hastily written hacks crammed together at the last minute and rushed through without any opportunity for anyone to actually evaluate it.
- hbarka 9y ago
  You’re missing the big picture. Our country will have a larger deficit and the burden on a percent share basis is heavier on the middle class.
adamnemecek 9y ago
One of the problems of US is the fact that protesting is virtually impossible. Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC for two weeks, no one will care. Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level. Also The general lack of public spaces makes it hard. And the fact that the police cracks down pretty hard on things after the first display of some sort of "disobedience". Look at the photos from protests in like France. Shit on fire, people throwing shit, but the police doesn't shoot them. Dystopian police state here we come. Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future.
- rl3 9y ago
  >Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future. This is my hope as well. I mean, if the future is going to be one big dysoptian hellscape, then I feel that having a cyberpunk noir metropolis to play around in would be only fair.
- maciejgryka 9y ago
  If you want to understand why protesting can be inneffective, I highly recommend "Twitter and Tear Gas" by Zeynep Tufekci (https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ with CC version available - but buy it!). One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    > One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning. Indeed. Furthermore an angry mob literally at the foot steps of the capitol. For a month. Angry as shit crowd. They need to pass through you. There aren't enough cops to arrest all of you in the entirety of the DC area. Don't break laws though. Wait for them to do that. Furthermore, I've been intrigued by Vaclav Havels (there were more people involved) idea of Parallel Polis. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-lessons-on-how-to-create-a-parallel-polis https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-le... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis Basically slowly create a parallel government that offers competing services. You can start small. Offer healthcare at competitive price for those who pay you "taxes". If I could pay two grand a year and get some perks (some sort of healthcare and over time more) out of it I would definitely consider it. Provide accredited education (over internet? idk). I believe having read somewhere that the US legal framework allows for this if you establish yourself as a Native American tribe as they can get out of quite a few obligations to the state and federal governments.
anigbrowl 9y ago
Minor upside: it still has to go through reconciliation and this Congress has proven itself expert in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But yeah, this is an economic dumpster fire.
tymmc 9y ago
What a horrible process. You don't get good legislation written by ramming it through without time to evaluate the consequences of the law.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it away from the fog of the controversy."
  - djur 9y ago
    A comment about a bill that took almost a year to draft and which was passed under regular order. And now hypocrites who used that quote to attack Pelosi are supporting this abominable bill, which was passed without any kind of analysis and without even the slightest pretense that anyone voting for it had read it.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      The legislative process is always a mess. No matter how much we pretend (in one direction, because double standards), no significant law passes without essentially indefensible actions "behind the scenes". We may feel that one bill is super-duper and the other one is terrible, but we shouldn't let that blind us to the inevitably shabby nature of the process. Likewise, selectively noticing that nature for the purpose of criticizing particular bills makes for unconvincing political argument.
- djur 9y ago
  Tonight I'm thinking about the Affordable Care Act, which McCain piously invoked as an example of the kind of unseemly rushing and ramming through that he disapproved of when he voted down the recent health care bill. The ACA took about a year to pass, spent an extensive amount of time in committee, incorporated hundreds of amendments, and had fundamentally the same structure from the beginning of the process to the end. This bill was cobbled together in a matter of weeks and was substantially altered while the Senate was in session preparing to vote on it. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
tymmc 9y ago
I think Mitch McConnell will go down as a historically terrible senator. He has an absolutely single-minded focus on winning legislative "victories" without any consideration of the actual merits of what he's corralling votes for or agaisnt.
- jrs235 9y ago
  Sounds like a prosecutor that focuses on convictions and personal record and not on truth and justice. This, the lack of pursuing truth and justice, is what is eroding our society.
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danieltillett 9y ago
I don’t know why anyone is worried about this - the worse the corruption and give away to the 0.01% the bigger the blowback. The end result is the 0.01% are going to pay far more than if they had been reasonable.
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  The standard operating procedure when American oligarchs feel threatened is war and racial/ethnic/religious division to distract the rubes. So probably quite a few people should be worried. I like your optimism though.
  - danieltillett 9y ago
    This sort of thing has been used for the last 40 years and its effectiveness is drawing to an end. Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore. You can only pull on a rubber band for so long before it eventually breaks and smacks you in the face. The band is now very, very tight. The next economic downturn risks unleashing something that no amount of money can control.
    - Judgmentality 9y ago
      > Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore. And yet Donald Trump was elected president.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        The fact that people put a game show host of his ilk in that office is the death of the institutional canary.
      - danieltillett 9y ago
        He was not elected because of support of the oligarchs. Jeb Bush was the sort of President they wanted. I think people underestimate how much of a break Donald is from the past - not because of who he is, but because of the way he was elected. Someone with real political skill is going to emerge from this desire for major change and if you are a member of the 0.01% you should be worried.
breerly 9y ago
Annnnd they pulled the AMT repeal.
- chatmasta 9y ago
  Gotta tax those rich people
NTDF9 9y ago
I think the US doesn't have enough accountability for its leaders. These guys just come in, serve the lobbyists and keep renewing their terms. They say one thing and do another. Is there any consequence of this directly to the congress people? Not really, cuz come election time, they'll lie through their teeth to get votes, all the while forgetting that they are the ones who did the damage in the first place. They should either ban lobbying or have penalties for congresspeople who lie to their electorates. As it stands, I can't see that happening.
shams93 9y ago
The Republicans have been so skilled at digital jerrymandering that we have digital technology delivering us a single party state. Only mass voter outrage will be enough to overcome a decade of very effective data driven jerrymandering.
- leifaffles 9y ago
  It's actually spelled "gerrymandering". You might have learned that by now if you weren't so busy spreading dumb conspiracy theories on the internet.
  - InclinedPlane 9y ago
    https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-invalidates-part-texas-congressional-map/ https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-invali... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-carolina-gerrymandering/527592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-c... https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-gerrymander-federal-court-strikes-down-wisconsins-gop-drawn-redistricting/ https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-gerrymande... Are you really that ignorant or are you complicit with these crimes?
- thrden 9y ago
  gerrymandering actually only comes into play within the house. if the vote for the house was done by a purely popular basis without regards to districting and state boundaries, the republicans would still control the house. However, their majority would be far slimmer[1]. overall these comparisons are complicated as you often have situations where candidates from the same party compete against each other, or face no challenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Represe...
deleted 9y ago
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leifaffles 9y ago
Here's a sampling of the top comments in this thread: * "protesting is virtually impossible" * "The law making process is so clearly broken" * "society will be warped into some dysfunctional dystopian end game" * "the US doesn't have enough accountability for its leaders" * "digital technology delivering us a single party state" * "Dystopian police state here we come" * "protest has been criminalized. The people who protested Trump's inauguration are facing what amounts to life in federal prison." Which are all just elaborate ways of crying "I don't like this bill. It must be unfair!". I'm gonna break something to you: it's not unfair. Stop being an immature baby. Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. That's a result of multiple successful midterm elections and the recent presidential election. If you don't like this bill, go vote for someone else in November instead of offering your elaborate theories of how US politics is "fundamentally broken" because you didn't get your way.
- labster 9y ago
  Elections in which the majority of voters voted against the current President, as well as for the opposition party in Congress. US politics is fundamentally broken because the majority does not get its way, nor does the party getting the lion's share of votes get a say in major policy.
  - leifaffles 9y ago
    US politics was intentionally designed such that the majority doesn't get its way. It's the single major innovation in liberal political philosophy in the past 500 years. Saying "it's not democratic!" isn't a useful comment. We know.
    - delta-v 9y ago
      How about saying replacing the current system with proportional representation? Is that a useful comment?
      - chrisbennet 9y ago
hellofunk 9y ago
I'm terribly surprised that McCain went along with this legislative process. No one had time to read the bill - or even have the bill itself - when the votes were cast. Just makes no sense. What kind of country behaves that way?
- InclinedPlane 9y ago
  A failed one.
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deleted 9y ago
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RickJWag 9y ago
The pendulum swings back and forth. It's not the end of the earth, it's not going to bring utopia. Can we please use Hacker News for technical issues?
- drallison 9y ago
  Hacker News should focus on important issues, which are not always technical. The Senates's tax overhaul is an important issue. The outrageous behavior of the Republican Senators to get the bill passes is an important issue.
calvinbhai 9y ago
I'm a temp immigrant in US, who is equally frustrated with the Trump hating democrat supporters, the Hillary-hating Trump supporters and the neutrals. Based on what I know from my own small sample set of data, makes me believe that the the Trump vote base is strong, and considerable in number, and is super happy with this tax overhaul. They see it as "Trump kept his promise", by simplifying the tax code, reducing taxes on his vote base, increasing taxes on the tax bracket that trump voters considered to be something like "free money mongers" and of course, its going to affect the democrat strongholds. What I find funny, is that many Trump haters are still starting a conversation by presuming that majority of the country hates this tax reform (its probably the top 10 most populous cities of US and California). I think people need to go out of democrat stronghold areas and get some real feedback. I'm curious to see how this sweeping tax overhaul works out in the long run

80 points by benevol 9y ago

ktt8943 9y ago

This bill is rural state senators and large corporations robbing middle class in industrialized areas.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

benevol 9y ago

I know it takes 100°C for water to boil, but how much does the US need? Keep in mind, Trump is not the source of the problem, he is one of the (reinforcing) symptoms of a host of underlying systemic societal issues.

domoritz 9y ago

It's sickening how large corporations make more and more money but pay almost no taxes because (through the money) they have so much influence on politics.

ansible 9y ago
And yet corporations have many of the same rights as people do these days.
WillPostForFood 9y ago
One of the main reasons large corporations pay no tax is that they hide the money in other countries with lower corporate tax rates. You can argue that it is a race to the bottom, or ineffective for other reasons, but the lower corporate tax rate is an attempt to deal with the issue, and get a cut of that money, albeit at a lower rate.
- dingaling 9y ago
  But if private citizens were able to park their income offshore I am fairly sure the response wouldn't be to lower income taxes.
  - ithkuil 9y ago
    Aren't there agreements between the US and other countries that prevents or limits double taxation for private citizens? Is there anything analogous for companies?
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    It is a matter of complexity, and quantity. Wealthy private citizens do park money offshore via trusts and other mechanisms. It wouldn't be a good trade-off to lower tax rates to lure it back, because it is at such a smaller scale than the corporate parking.
- mcny 9y ago
  I think we need to talk about this in more detail. Let's say some company like Google has income all across the world. People click ads in Germany. Some German company pays Google €1. Google doesn't want to pay US taxes on it. It "parks" this money in Germany. I think that's different from let's say some American company has some income $100 from another American company. But we set up a fake company in a tax free country and says we had to spend $100 in "intellectual property" thus our profit is zero so we don't pay taxes. I am not an accountant so please correct me if I am wrong in these scenarios. I don't quite understand tax policy to be honest. For example: tax rate. Is it really just random numbers that people agree on? It just doesn't seem any of this is based on science. More like everyone is trying to get what they can. Here is another one: if I click an ad on Google for Google Chrome, does Google pay itself for the ad amount? If so, do they owe sales tax on that transaction? How foes this work? Is it possible for us to tax revenue instead of taxing profits (perhaps at a lower rate)? I think part of our problem is our addiction to deductions and credits. If people want to simplify the tax code, we should try to eliminate deductions and credits.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    The New York times walks through an example using Apple and iTunes. It is much worse than example of parking a Euro in the country it was earned. For instance, one of Apple’s subsidiaries in Luxembourg, named iTunes S.à r.l., has just a few dozen employees, according to corporate documents filed in that nation and a current executive. The only indication of the subsidiary’s presence outside is a letterbox with a lopsided slip of paper reading “ITUNES SARL.” Luxembourg has just half a million residents. But when customers across Europe, Africa or the Middle East — and potentially elsewhere — download a song, television show or app, the sale is recorded in this small country, according to current and former executives. In 2011, iTunes S.à r.l.’s revenue exceeded $1 billion, according to an Apple executive, representing roughly 20 percent of iTunes’s worldwide sales. The advantages of Luxembourg are simple, say Apple executives. The country has promised to tax the payments collected by Apple and numerous other tech corporations at low rates if they route transactions through Luxembourg. Taxes that would have otherwise gone to the governments of Britain, France, the United States and dozens of other nations go to Luxembourg instead, at discounted rates. And that's the simple part, read the "Double Irish" section, which is an even worse tactic. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strate...
thescribe 9y ago
I'm coming from a very opposite perspective. All corporate taxes are silly, just tax the people that make income.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

This will go down in history as one of the most grotesque things to ever have happened in American politics. And that's saying a lot, there is some stiff competition for sure.

TAForObvReasons 9y ago

For those who didn't watch the proceedings, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQAYbwpU8AELZa0.jpg was one of the actual pages of the bill, quite literally handwritten scribbled margin notes.

francamps 9y ago
Source?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- swang 9y ago
  https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/936738041087037440 https://twitter.com/SenatorDurbin/status/936738041087037440 edit: https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/status/936748480000921600 https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/status/936748480000921600
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  S/he gave you a source. If you don't think it's adequate you should say why. PBS has a good reputation for veracity.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
mino 9y ago
I saw that image popping up in my twitter feed, but I just assumed it was a parody :|

lancewiggs 9y ago

The law making process is so clearly broken. I see this as a contributing factor to the long gradual decline of the role of the USA in the world. The reemergence of China should be engendering a positive spirit of lifting the game, not a money grabbing exercise. If you can’t make evidence based laws for the people then society will be warped into some dysfunctional dystopian end game.

mbaha 9y ago
Following your logic, China is better off because instead of having one party protesting but failing to reject a law promoted by the elections-winning other party, it's just better to have one single party control everything. Sorry but I find this just mindblowing.
- Alacart 9y ago
  The parent comment is saying that the economic success of China should be encouraging America to step it's game up, not that it should become a single party system.
  - mbaha 9y ago
    I'd argue that berating economic success as the main metric for measuring a country's success is precisely what is slowly but surely eroding the West's precious institutions. Since when people just want to live comfortable lives and leave their collective fate to be decided by a minority whose interests do not necessarily align with the people's interests (otherwise, they would just allow fair elections). Small example: of course, country-wide surveillance à la China would lead to "economic success", do you think it's criticized because it would lead to mass poverty ? It would lead to a perfectly stable future for the population, with ever improving quality of life and security. The problem, as you may guess, lies elsewhere.
- beisner 9y ago
  I’d be the first to say there are a bunch of serious problems posed by the one-party system in China, but getting important projects done quickly is not one of them.

sytelus 9y ago

I have been watching comments on NYTimes and Fox News and what surprised was not a single person (out of couple of thousands) actually estimated their tax bill and compared. There is one calculator out here (which might not be accurate because of changes): https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calculator https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calcula... I used it to arrive at following numbers. If this tax calculator is right then there is indeed ~$10K tax cut for everyone in middle class and above: $750K->$236,950 to $212,060 350K->$81,595 to $72,060 250K->$47,701 to $38,900 150K->$17,778 to $9900 50K->$548 to 0 On the other hand this NYTimes analysis says that lower and middle class cuts are tiny but people with $1M or more just get huge cut: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/senate-tax-plan-analysis.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/17/us/politics/s... Also, according to above analysis poor people will be taxed more than before after 10 years! So overall at this point I think computing impact remains very hazy given all kind of conflicting information. But one thing for sure, rich people are the major winner here given much higher cuts + no or less death tax. Warren Buffet had said that common strategy they used during Bush era was to give $400 one time check to everyone so they are happy while sneaking in millions of dollars of recurring tax cuts for the rich in form of capital gains. I wish US had Swiss style public referendums where people can demand to vote on legislation and overthrow any legislation they wished.

KVFinn 9y ago
The U.S Bureau of the Census has the annual real median personal income at $31,099 in 2016. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
tymmc 9y ago
The reality is that no-one really understand the consequences of the bill. It's a gigantic shit-pile of hastily written hacks crammed together at the last minute and rushed through without any opportunity for anyone to actually evaluate it.
hbarka 9y ago
You’re missing the big picture. Our country will have a larger deficit and the burden on a percent share basis is heavier on the middle class.

adamnemecek 9y ago

One of the problems of US is the fact that protesting is virtually impossible. Unless there are 1,000,000 people in the streets of DC for two weeks, no one will care. Protesting in your city has little impact on the federal level. Also The general lack of public spaces makes it hard. And the fact that the police cracks down pretty hard on things after the first display of some sort of "disobedience". Look at the photos from protests in like France. Shit on fire, people throwing shit, but the police doesn't shoot them. Dystopian police state here we come. Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future.

rl3 9y ago
>Fuck I hope at least there will be a real NeoTokyo in the future. This is my hope as well. I mean, if the future is going to be one big dysoptian hellscape, then I feel that having a cyberpunk noir metropolis to play around in would be only fair.
maciejgryka 9y ago
If you want to understand why protesting can be inneffective, I highly recommend "Twitter and Tear Gas" by Zeynep Tufekci (https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ https://www.twitterandteargas.org/ with CC version available - but buy it!). One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  > One important factor: protests are only effective if they demonstrate the ability of the movement to affect elections. There are multiple reasons why the senate is not concerned and they're all... highly concerning. Indeed. Furthermore an angry mob literally at the foot steps of the capitol. For a month. Angry as shit crowd. They need to pass through you. There aren't enough cops to arrest all of you in the entirety of the DC area. Don't break laws though. Wait for them to do that. Furthermore, I've been intrigued by Vaclav Havels (there were more people involved) idea of Parallel Polis. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-lessons-on-how-to-create-a-parallel-polis https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vaclav-havels-le... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis Basically slowly create a parallel government that offers competing services. You can start small. Offer healthcare at competitive price for those who pay you "taxes". If I could pay two grand a year and get some perks (some sort of healthcare and over time more) out of it I would definitely consider it. Provide accredited education (over internet? idk). I believe having read somewhere that the US legal framework allows for this if you establish yourself as a Native American tribe as they can get out of quite a few obligations to the state and federal governments.

anigbrowl 9y ago

Minor upside: it still has to go through reconciliation and this Congress has proven itself expert in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But yeah, this is an economic dumpster fire.

tymmc 9y ago

What a horrible process. You don't get good legislation written by ramming it through without time to evaluate the consequences of the law.

jessaustin 9y ago
"We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it away from the fog of the controversy."
- djur 9y ago
  A comment about a bill that took almost a year to draft and which was passed under regular order. And now hypocrites who used that quote to attack Pelosi are supporting this abominable bill, which was passed without any kind of analysis and without even the slightest pretense that anyone voting for it had read it.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    The legislative process is always a mess. No matter how much we pretend (in one direction, because double standards), no significant law passes without essentially indefensible actions "behind the scenes". We may feel that one bill is super-duper and the other one is terrible, but we shouldn't let that blind us to the inevitably shabby nature of the process. Likewise, selectively noticing that nature for the purpose of criticizing particular bills makes for unconvincing political argument.
djur 9y ago
Tonight I'm thinking about the Affordable Care Act, which McCain piously invoked as an example of the kind of unseemly rushing and ramming through that he disapproved of when he voted down the recent health care bill. The ACA took about a year to pass, spent an extensive amount of time in committee, incorporated hundreds of amendments, and had fundamentally the same structure from the beginning of the process to the end. This bill was cobbled together in a matter of weeks and was substantially altered while the Senate was in session preparing to vote on it. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

tymmc 9y ago

I think Mitch McConnell will go down as a historically terrible senator. He has an absolutely single-minded focus on winning legislative "victories" without any consideration of the actual merits of what he's corralling votes for or agaisnt.

jrs235 9y ago
Sounds like a prosecutor that focuses on convictions and personal record and not on truth and justice. This, the lack of pursuing truth and justice, is what is eroding our society.

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danieltillett 9y ago

I don’t know why anyone is worried about this - the worse the corruption and give away to the 0.01% the bigger the blowback. The end result is the 0.01% are going to pay far more than if they had been reasonable.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago
The standard operating procedure when American oligarchs feel threatened is war and racial/ethnic/religious division to distract the rubes. So probably quite a few people should be worried. I like your optimism though.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  This sort of thing has been used for the last 40 years and its effectiveness is drawing to an end. Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore. You can only pull on a rubber band for so long before it eventually breaks and smacks you in the face. The band is now very, very tight. The next economic downturn risks unleashing something that no amount of money can control.
  - Judgmentality 9y ago
    > Nobody believes anything the oligarchs say anymore. And yet Donald Trump was elected president.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      The fact that people put a game show host of his ilk in that office is the death of the institutional canary.
    - danieltillett 9y ago
      He was not elected because of support of the oligarchs. Jeb Bush was the sort of President they wanted. I think people underestimate how much of a break Donald is from the past - not because of who he is, but because of the way he was elected. Someone with real political skill is going to emerge from this desire for major change and if you are a member of the 0.01% you should be worried.

breerly 9y ago

Annnnd they pulled the AMT repeal.

chatmasta 9y ago
Gotta tax those rich people

NTDF9 9y ago

I think the US doesn't have enough accountability for its leaders. These guys just come in, serve the lobbyists and keep renewing their terms. They say one thing and do another. Is there any consequence of this directly to the congress people? Not really, cuz come election time, they'll lie through their teeth to get votes, all the while forgetting that they are the ones who did the damage in the first place. They should either ban lobbying or have penalties for congresspeople who lie to their electorates. As it stands, I can't see that happening.

shams93 9y ago

The Republicans have been so skilled at digital jerrymandering that we have digital technology delivering us a single party state. Only mass voter outrage will be enough to overcome a decade of very effective data driven jerrymandering.

leifaffles 9y ago
It's actually spelled "gerrymandering". You might have learned that by now if you weren't so busy spreading dumb conspiracy theories on the internet.
- InclinedPlane 9y ago
  https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-invalidates-part-texas-congressional-map/ https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/15/federal-court-invali... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-carolina-gerrymandering/527592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-c... https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-gerrymander-federal-court-strikes-down-wisconsins-gop-drawn-redistricting/ https://www.salon.com/2016/11/22/unconstitutional-gerrymande... Are you really that ignorant or are you complicit with these crimes?
thrden 9y ago
gerrymandering actually only comes into play within the house. if the vote for the house was done by a purely popular basis without regards to districting and state boundaries, the republicans would still control the house. However, their majority would be far slimmer[1]. overall these comparisons are complicated as you often have situations where candidates from the same party compete against each other, or face no challenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Represe...

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leifaffles 9y ago

Here's a sampling of the top comments in this thread: * "protesting is virtually impossible" * "The law making process is so clearly broken" * "society will be warped into some dysfunctional dystopian end game" * "the US doesn't have enough accountability for its leaders" * "digital technology delivering us a single party state" * "Dystopian police state here we come" * "protest has been criminalized. The people who protested Trump's inauguration are facing what amounts to life in federal prison." Which are all just elaborate ways of crying "I don't like this bill. It must be unfair!". I'm gonna break something to you: it's not unfair. Stop being an immature baby. Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. That's a result of multiple successful midterm elections and the recent presidential election. If you don't like this bill, go vote for someone else in November instead of offering your elaborate theories of how US politics is "fundamentally broken" because you didn't get your way.

labster 9y ago
Elections in which the majority of voters voted against the current President, as well as for the opposition party in Congress. US politics is fundamentally broken because the majority does not get its way, nor does the party getting the lion's share of votes get a say in major policy.
- leifaffles 9y ago
  US politics was intentionally designed such that the majority doesn't get its way. It's the single major innovation in liberal political philosophy in the past 500 years. Saying "it's not democratic!" isn't a useful comment. We know.
  - delta-v 9y ago
    How about saying replacing the current system with proportional representation? Is that a useful comment?
    - chrisbennet 9y ago

hellofunk 9y ago

I'm terribly surprised that McCain went along with this legislative process. No one had time to read the bill - or even have the bill itself - when the votes were cast. Just makes no sense. What kind of country behaves that way?

InclinedPlane 9y ago
A failed one.

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RickJWag 9y ago

The pendulum swings back and forth. It's not the end of the earth, it's not going to bring utopia. Can we please use Hacker News for technical issues?

drallison 9y ago
Hacker News should focus on important issues, which are not always technical. The Senates's tax overhaul is an important issue. The outrageous behavior of the Republican Senators to get the bill passes is an important issue.

calvinbhai 9y ago

I'm a temp immigrant in US, who is equally frustrated with the Trump hating democrat supporters, the Hillary-hating Trump supporters and the neutrals. Based on what I know from my own small sample set of data, makes me believe that the the Trump vote base is strong, and considerable in number, and is super happy with this tax overhaul. They see it as "Trump kept his promise", by simplifying the tax code, reducing taxes on his vote base, increasing taxes on the tax bracket that trump voters considered to be something like "free money mongers" and of course, its going to affect the democrat strongholds. What I find funny, is that many Trump haters are still starting a conversation by presuming that majority of the country hates this tax reform (its probably the top 10 most populous cities of US and California). I think people need to go out of democrat stronghold areas and get some real feedback. I'm curious to see how this sweeping tax overhaul works out in the long run