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German government wants ‘backdoor’ access to every digital device: report

92 points by mnmlsm 9y ago

NiklasMort 9y ago
I bet in a few years most countries will simply follow China and make it illegal not to own/use "closed" devices that are not accessible for the government. 1984 was harmless compared to what is already here and what is coming.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  FYI man, alright. You could sit at home, and do like absolutely nothing, and your name goes through like 17 computers a day. 1984? Yeah right, man. That's a typo. Orwell is here now. He's livin' large. We have no names, man. No names. We are nameless!
  - hprotagonist 9y ago
    Can I score a fry?
candiodari 9y ago
Coming soon: a proposal to hold the government responsible for every breach of data that occurs because they corruptly assigned some contract to an irresponsible third party or hired a minimum wage cop who decided surveillance power's main use is to prove that you really do secretly love him [1]. And of course for selling your private photos. [2] Wait. Nope, no way in hell the government is responsible for those things [2] (even ignoring the fact that the government internally knows about thousands of abuse of surveillance data cases as the AP points out and I was able to find 2 references to cases about such abuse, neither held the government responsible for anything (and neither was filed by the government). However they do make clear that government cares deeply that cops not be punished for abusing surveillance systems) [1] https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/security/cops-run-unauthorized-searches-on-confidential-databases-for-revenge-stalking.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/security/cops-... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/08/26/ninth-circuit-overturns-cfaa-verdicts-for-misusing-databases/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...
haraldooo 9y ago
Proposing such a drastic law should somehow be not so easy to do. Sure, this proposal won‘t go through as is but what ever „weaker version“ of it will come in a few months will therefore sound much more sensible and might go through.. these „tactics“ make me really angry..
GTP 9y ago
Never expected this from Germany.But we should wait to see if this is really considered by the governament as viable or not.
- iagooar 9y ago
  The good thing about Germany is that there is a healthy separation of powers and the Constitutional Court will never allow this, not even coming from the executive. If that step fails, there is still the German people who would never allow this to get approved. Or at least this is my intuition of what will possibly happen.
  - LoSboccacc 9y ago
    Bet ob the court because german people has been quite toothless in the last decade
  - trowaybloway 9y ago
    > The Constitutional Court ... found the government's "propaganda outlets" supporting mandatory fees which are a bunch of times over the European average not disagreeable, for one example. Abuse of surveillance could be used to set the court under pressure, eventually.
Sylos 9y ago
Thomas de Maizière wants that. The guy says unconstitutional shit like this every other week. It'll be shot down by our supreme court for sure, if it's even taken into consideration in the first place.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  Its like this guy never heard of the DDR and the Stazi.
  - CamperBob2 9y ago
    I'm sure he's heard of them. The question is, have the voters who elected him?
    - Sylos 9y ago
      He's not directly elected. Merkel appointed him.
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    It's written Stasi (Ministerium für Staatssicherheit). That z you probably get from association with Nazis.
- waibelp 9y ago
  Nothing to add.
- krylon 9y ago
  On the one hand, you are right. On the other hand, it is still troubling. Also, I get the impression that the supreme court is tired of basically having to make policy by invalidating unconstitutional laws. If there were serious consequences for politicians and members of parliament for creating unconstitutional laws, maybe they would think twice before doing that. But of course, the people who would have to put such sanctions in place are the very people who would be affected by them, so that is not going to happen. :(
weddpros 9y ago
When I see a story where representative democracy is failing to serve the people, I can't help but remember that this form of democracy was invented before we had the Internet. The Internet should be used to fix its deficiencies. Change.org clearly isn't enough. Digital democracy, even with 10% fraudsters, would be better than representative democracy by a large margin.
- Veratyr 9y ago
  The theoretical advantage of representative democracy is that the average voter doesn't have the time or knowledge to make decisions on the vast majority of issues, while an elected representative can spend 100% of their time ensuring they make the decision that benefits their constituents. That, plus it's actually _really_ hard to write a law. I agree that representative democracies as we see them implemented have serious issues but I don't think it's viable to replace it with direct democracy, digital or not. Imagine if America was a direct democracy, the country would be a flaming wreck by now.
  - weddpros 9y ago
    "the average voter doesn't have the time or knowledge to make decisions" That's condescendent, and openly anti-democratic. The time argument is the worse of the two: "people don't bother with making decisions, so let's make decisions for them". Really? "elected representative can spend 100% of their time ensuring they make the decision that benefits their constituents"... "could" instead of "can" would be more appropriate. That's an hypothesis. "it's actually _really_ hard to write a law": to me it seems there are too many laws anyway, so let's make it easier. No prejudice? no law. Less freedom for the People? no law. How many laws would become obsolete? "representative democracies as we see them implemented have serious issues": if representative democracies were working on those issues, we wouldn't have this discussion. "Imagine if America was a direct democracy, the country would be a flaming wreck by now"... America once was a flaming wreck... then a great country emerged. Sounds a lot like FUD.
    - Veratyr 9y ago
sunstone 9y ago
The Germans always were anally fixated.
bsqtmp 9y ago
There is another big Risk to this point. If you have Back Doors everybody can use it not just government
gaius 9y ago
The Germans will be safe for a good few years yet. Their government will only be able to do this when everyone who lived under the Stasi dies and can no longer vote.
jhiska 9y ago
Folks, don't despair; always look at the bright side. They're still years away from backdoor access to every German person!

92 points by mnmlsm 9y ago

I bet in a few years most countries will simply follow China and make it illegal not to own/use "closed" devices that are not accessible for the government. 1984 was harmless compared to what is already here and what is coming.

mindcrime 9y ago
FYI man, alright. You could sit at home, and do like absolutely nothing, and your name goes through like 17 computers a day. 1984? Yeah right, man. That's a typo. Orwell is here now. He's livin' large. We have no names, man. No names. We are nameless!
- hprotagonist 9y ago
  Can I score a fry?

candiodari 9y ago

Coming soon: a proposal to hold the government responsible for every breach of data that occurs because they corruptly assigned some contract to an irresponsible third party or hired a minimum wage cop who decided surveillance power's main use is to prove that you really do secretly love him [1]. And of course for selling your private photos. [2] Wait. Nope, no way in hell the government is responsible for those things [2] (even ignoring the fact that the government internally knows about thousands of abuse of surveillance data cases as the AP points out and I was able to find 2 references to cases about such abuse, neither held the government responsible for anything (and neither was filed by the government). However they do make clear that government cares deeply that cops not be punished for abusing surveillance systems) [1] https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/security/cops-run-unauthorized-searches-on-confidential-databases-for-revenge-stalking.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/security/cops-... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/08/26/ninth-circuit-overturns-cfaa-verdicts-for-misusing-databases/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

haraldooo 9y ago

Proposing such a drastic law should somehow be not so easy to do. Sure, this proposal won‘t go through as is but what ever „weaker version“ of it will come in a few months will therefore sound much more sensible and might go through.. these „tactics“ make me really angry..

GTP 9y ago

Never expected this from Germany.But we should wait to see if this is really considered by the governament as viable or not.

iagooar 9y ago
The good thing about Germany is that there is a healthy separation of powers and the Constitutional Court will never allow this, not even coming from the executive. If that step fails, there is still the German people who would never allow this to get approved. Or at least this is my intuition of what will possibly happen.
- LoSboccacc 9y ago
  Bet ob the court because german people has been quite toothless in the last decade
- trowaybloway 9y ago
  > The Constitutional Court ... found the government's "propaganda outlets" supporting mandatory fees which are a bunch of times over the European average not disagreeable, for one example. Abuse of surveillance could be used to set the court under pressure, eventually.

Sylos 9y ago

Thomas de Maizière wants that. The guy says unconstitutional shit like this every other week. It'll be shot down by our supreme court for sure, if it's even taken into consideration in the first place.

ekianjo 9y ago
Its like this guy never heard of the DDR and the Stazi.
- CamperBob2 9y ago
  I'm sure he's heard of them. The question is, have the voters who elected him?
  - Sylos 9y ago
    He's not directly elected. Merkel appointed him.
- ptaipale 9y ago
  It's written Stasi (Ministerium für Staatssicherheit). That z you probably get from association with Nazis.
waibelp 9y ago
Nothing to add.
krylon 9y ago
On the one hand, you are right. On the other hand, it is still troubling. Also, I get the impression that the supreme court is tired of basically having to make policy by invalidating unconstitutional laws. If there were serious consequences for politicians and members of parliament for creating unconstitutional laws, maybe they would think twice before doing that. But of course, the people who would have to put such sanctions in place are the very people who would be affected by them, so that is not going to happen. :(

weddpros 9y ago

When I see a story where representative democracy is failing to serve the people, I can't help but remember that this form of democracy was invented before we had the Internet. The Internet should be used to fix its deficiencies. Change.org clearly isn't enough. Digital democracy, even with 10% fraudsters, would be better than representative democracy by a large margin.

Veratyr 9y ago
The theoretical advantage of representative democracy is that the average voter doesn't have the time or knowledge to make decisions on the vast majority of issues, while an elected representative can spend 100% of their time ensuring they make the decision that benefits their constituents. That, plus it's actually _really_ hard to write a law. I agree that representative democracies as we see them implemented have serious issues but I don't think it's viable to replace it with direct democracy, digital or not. Imagine if America was a direct democracy, the country would be a flaming wreck by now.
- weddpros 9y ago
  "the average voter doesn't have the time or knowledge to make decisions" That's condescendent, and openly anti-democratic. The time argument is the worse of the two: "people don't bother with making decisions, so let's make decisions for them". Really? "elected representative can spend 100% of their time ensuring they make the decision that benefits their constituents"... "could" instead of "can" would be more appropriate. That's an hypothesis. "it's actually _really_ hard to write a law": to me it seems there are too many laws anyway, so let's make it easier. No prejudice? no law. Less freedom for the People? no law. How many laws would become obsolete? "representative democracies as we see them implemented have serious issues": if representative democracies were working on those issues, we wouldn't have this discussion. "Imagine if America was a direct democracy, the country would be a flaming wreck by now"... America once was a flaming wreck... then a great country emerged. Sounds a lot like FUD.
  - Veratyr 9y ago

sunstone 9y ago

The Germans always were anally fixated.

bsqtmp 9y ago

There is another big Risk to this point. If you have Back Doors everybody can use it not just government

gaius 9y ago

The Germans will be safe for a good few years yet. Their government will only be able to do this when everyone who lived under the Stasi dies and can no longer vote.

jhiska 9y ago

Folks, don't despair; always look at the bright side. They're still years away from backdoor access to every German person!