4 ms·

> But they also don't really have a good alternative that wouldn't lose them a lot of money in a time where, if they're not in the class that owns multiple hous

> But they also don't really have a good alternative that wouldn't lose them a lot of money in a time where, if they're not in the class that owns multiple houses, they're already struggling. That's not true at all. They could sell their homes for their mindbogglingly inflated values to condo developers in exchange for multiple units in the new buildings. They wouldn't have to move at all (except temporarily, while construction is going on), and would even gain an asset that they can rent out or sell later. What they're fighting for is the right to keep their low-density suburb, single-family home, lifestyle. Which would be fine except that their insistence on doing this is impoverishing everyone else.

leggomylibro 9y ago
Heh. Try telling the average family that their lifestyle is unsustainable and unfairly subsidized by others. They will have a litany of troubles and problems that they go through, ready to fire off, no matter how well off they are. I know I have one. It's not fair, so I try not to listen to it, but I do have one. A whole litany.
- AckSyn 9y ago
  > Try telling the average family that their lifestyle is unsustainable and unfairly subsidized by others. Well the fact remains that it does not happen. When I purchased my home in 2003 I received no tax credits, support from the government, bonuses, or a pat on the back. I put 20% down after saving up everything I could for a solid 5 years after landing a great job after college, which again wasn't subsidized or had grants for. No one else does this but me and the ridiculous sense of entitlement or attitude of it being "unfair" that someone else can't afford it really stems from a deeper issue.
  - einarvollset 9y ago
    Prediction: you vote GOP, yet do not consider the support you get from the government in terms a mortgage interest deduction, FHA loan eligibility of people who could buy your house propping your house value up, nor in fact how Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (govt supported) actions makes it possible for you to rely on a fixed 30 year rate for your mortgage. Oh no, you did it all by yourself.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      (Don't tell him GOP is getting ready to cap mortgage deductions at $500k. He's probably not going to be crazy about the SALT deductions going away either. Out here in flyover country it all sounds great!)
      - infinite8s 9y ago
        Only for new mortgages.
    - AckSyn 9y ago
      Prediction false. And politics have nothing to do with my employment nor my ability to not waste money on garbage so many of my whiny peers do (who then complain about not being able to afford anything).
    - spaginal 9y ago
      If he bought a home through hard work, I’m fairly certain he’s aware that he’s paying taxes through the nose to support these programs as well. I know I am. Get off your high horse about the government charitability towards homes, the government didn’t provide these programs out of its own back pocket, our tax dollars provide these programs.
      - einarvollset 9y ago
        Dude. Home ownership is one of the most tax advantaged investments in the US. Rather than telling me to get of my “high horse”, why don’t you get of your Austrian economics horse and point to a more tax advantaged investment and we can chat? Can’t? No, because it does not exist unless you’re into carried interest territory.
  - linkregister 9y ago
    > No one else does this but me Are you being sarcastic? If you're not a Bay Area (or other unaffordable area) resident, then your viewpoint is rational. The price-to-income ratio of your new neighbor should be about the same as your price-to-income ratio when you moved in. If you're a resident of metro San Francisco, San Jose, Denver, Dallas, Austin, Washington DC, or Boston, then you are expecting different behavior from your new neighbors. They will need to save for 10 or more years for that down payment of 20% due to competition from each other. The income required to live in these metro areas is much higher. The lower-middle class is pushed out. Upper-middle class folks who want to live below their means don't have the option to. Fairness is the wrong metric; life in all societies is fundamentally unfair. It is just nonsensical for you to expect other people who are chasing opportunity (those metros are where the best jobs are) to give up, when you chased that same opportunity when you moved where you currently live. Because our economy is changing, this means it's harder, but don't knock people for trying.
gozur88 9y ago
How is that impoverishing everyone else? There's an incredible amount of empty land in the US - the UK has 12 times the population density. I don't understand why people feel they have a right to move to a particular place and live there at a particular price.
- artursapek 9y ago
  I agree. A city can grow too much, similarly to how startups can grow too much and end up wasting a lot of resources and having to cut staff. The Bay Area growing indefinitely is not necessarily good for the Bay Area.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  > I don't understand why people feel they have a right to move to a particular place and live there at a particular price. I don't understand why people feel they should have the right to decide what their neighbors do with their property (as long as they're not opening up a waste treatment facility or something). But that's beside the point. There are two main reasons why "just move" isn't easily actionable advice: jobs and family. The reason expensive areas are expensive is because they have desirable jobs. (One) reason cheap areas are cheap is because they don't have as many desirable jobs. Those of us working in tech in the Bay Area accept that we earn high salaries in part because the rent is so high. So we grumble but we can make ends meet and life is mostly good. For those who aren't so lucky to be working in hot industries with good pay, support of family and friends matters much more. Single-mom has grandma looking after the kid so she can work; if she moves to Des Moines or wherever the rent is lower, she loses that free childcare she'd been getting. Since most jobs come through referrals, she'd have to have professional and social networks in those cities before moving. Otherwise it's just a leap into the unknown to move before having an offer in hand. If you don't work in tech, I don't think having 15 recruiters emailing you before breakfast is the norm.

leggomylibro 9y ago

Heh. Try telling the average family that their lifestyle is unsustainable and unfairly subsidized by others. They will have a litany of troubles and problems that they go through, ready to fire off, no matter how well off they are. I know I have one. It's not fair, so I try not to listen to it, but I do have one. A whole litany.

AckSyn 9y ago
> Try telling the average family that their lifestyle is unsustainable and unfairly subsidized by others. Well the fact remains that it does not happen. When I purchased my home in 2003 I received no tax credits, support from the government, bonuses, or a pat on the back. I put 20% down after saving up everything I could for a solid 5 years after landing a great job after college, which again wasn't subsidized or had grants for. No one else does this but me and the ridiculous sense of entitlement or attitude of it being "unfair" that someone else can't afford it really stems from a deeper issue.
- einarvollset 9y ago
  Prediction: you vote GOP, yet do not consider the support you get from the government in terms a mortgage interest deduction, FHA loan eligibility of people who could buy your house propping your house value up, nor in fact how Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (govt supported) actions makes it possible for you to rely on a fixed 30 year rate for your mortgage. Oh no, you did it all by yourself.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    (Don't tell him GOP is getting ready to cap mortgage deductions at $500k. He's probably not going to be crazy about the SALT deductions going away either. Out here in flyover country it all sounds great!)
    - infinite8s 9y ago
      Only for new mortgages.
  - AckSyn 9y ago
    Prediction false. And politics have nothing to do with my employment nor my ability to not waste money on garbage so many of my whiny peers do (who then complain about not being able to afford anything).
  - spaginal 9y ago
    If he bought a home through hard work, I’m fairly certain he’s aware that he’s paying taxes through the nose to support these programs as well. I know I am. Get off your high horse about the government charitability towards homes, the government didn’t provide these programs out of its own back pocket, our tax dollars provide these programs.
    - einarvollset 9y ago
      Dude. Home ownership is one of the most tax advantaged investments in the US. Rather than telling me to get of my “high horse”, why don’t you get of your Austrian economics horse and point to a more tax advantaged investment and we can chat? Can’t? No, because it does not exist unless you’re into carried interest territory.
- linkregister 9y ago
  > No one else does this but me Are you being sarcastic? If you're not a Bay Area (or other unaffordable area) resident, then your viewpoint is rational. The price-to-income ratio of your new neighbor should be about the same as your price-to-income ratio when you moved in. If you're a resident of metro San Francisco, San Jose, Denver, Dallas, Austin, Washington DC, or Boston, then you are expecting different behavior from your new neighbors. They will need to save for 10 or more years for that down payment of 20% due to competition from each other. The income required to live in these metro areas is much higher. The lower-middle class is pushed out. Upper-middle class folks who want to live below their means don't have the option to. Fairness is the wrong metric; life in all societies is fundamentally unfair. It is just nonsensical for you to expect other people who are chasing opportunity (those metros are where the best jobs are) to give up, when you chased that same opportunity when you moved where you currently live. Because our economy is changing, this means it's harder, but don't knock people for trying.

gozur88 9y ago

How is that impoverishing everyone else? There's an incredible amount of empty land in the US - the UK has 12 times the population density. I don't understand why people feel they have a right to move to a particular place and live there at a particular price.

artursapek 9y ago
I agree. A city can grow too much, similarly to how startups can grow too much and end up wasting a lot of resources and having to cut staff. The Bay Area growing indefinitely is not necessarily good for the Bay Area.
jogjayr 9y ago
> I don't understand why people feel they have a right to move to a particular place and live there at a particular price. I don't understand why people feel they should have the right to decide what their neighbors do with their property (as long as they're not opening up a waste treatment facility or something). But that's beside the point. There are two main reasons why "just move" isn't easily actionable advice: jobs and family. The reason expensive areas are expensive is because they have desirable jobs. (One) reason cheap areas are cheap is because they don't have as many desirable jobs. Those of us working in tech in the Bay Area accept that we earn high salaries in part because the rent is so high. So we grumble but we can make ends meet and life is mostly good. For those who aren't so lucky to be working in hot industries with good pay, support of family and friends matters much more. Single-mom has grandma looking after the kid so she can work; if she moves to Des Moines or wherever the rent is lower, she loses that free childcare she'd been getting. Since most jobs come through referrals, she'd have to have professional and social networks in those cities before moving. Otherwise it's just a leap into the unknown to move before having an offer in hand. If you don't work in tech, I don't think having 15 recruiters emailing you before breakfast is the norm.