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Yeah, I feel you. But I also feel for people who have worked their whole lives to build towards a comfortable retirement, put their lives' worth of sweat and te

Yeah, I feel you. But I also feel for people who have worked their whole lives to build towards a comfortable retirement, put their lives' worth of sweat and tears into that, and then had it pulled out from under them. There's a hyperbole to express on both sides, but I can understand why people who are worth $1-5 million and are past their 50s might feel threatened by this sort of development. They aren't in a particularly marginalized position, but they are probably frightened about the rapid change and possibly out hundreds of thousands of dollars plus time they don't have. I agree, build those homes and reduce the power of small groups to put up large barriers, but I also understand where the residents are coming from to some degree.

morgante 9y ago
> There's a hyperbole to express on both sides, but I can understand why people who are worth $1-5 million and are past their 50s might feel threatened by this sort of development. They can sell their house and live a life of luxury virtually anywhere else in the world. I have a hard time sympathizing with such people. They're not out anything—they're amongst the most privileged people in the country. Sure, I understand where they're coming from. That doesn't mean they have my sympathy. I understand why billionaires advocate for lowering their own taxes—that doesn't mean I give them an ounce of sympathy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- einarvollset 9y ago
  Give your mum a call (you’re clearly young, so she’s likely alive), tell her that she has to move to somewhere 5x cheaper. There are lots of places all over the world that would make sense. I understand why that might be uncomfortable for her - that doesn’t mean i should give her one ounce of sympathy. Amirite?
  - morgante 9y ago
    My mom has moved plenty of times in her life. It's not like moving is a crazy abnormality—tons of people move when they retire.
    - XJOKOLAT 9y ago
      What a dumbass.
    - gambiting 9y ago
      Of course - but if you worked hard all your life to live in a place that YOU like, I think it would be quite hard to accept someone else telling you to move,no?
  - AlanSE 9y ago
    Plenty of people move for economic reasons in the transition to retirement. You're exactly right to put this kind of economic trend in personal terms - we should seek to do this. Nonetheless, I feel like a reference to "your mum" is more intended to shut down the conversation than anything else. I speak for plenty of people when I say that my own parents moved cities as they retired. For many of those who move for retirement, the place they most love doesn't perfectly align when the best place to work and raise children. That makes it an easy decision. My parents moved to a place with more family, lower cost of living, and easier access to commercial areas. The fact that it is hard to find a job in this place no longer played a major role. Sure, there are people living in Berkley and NYC who LOVE those places and want to die there. Still... that's not necessarily representative or even common. Many people move further away from urban centers even when starting a family.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - corprew 9y ago
    "you’re clearly young, so she’s likely alive" <-- why the youth-based insult here when you could have made your point easily without it.
  - 9y ago
danmaz74 9y ago
I'm sorry, but I really can't shed a tear for the economic worries of people who are worth $1-5 million, when even in first World countries there are hundreds of millions of people who are scraping by with negative worths...
rtpg 9y ago
if you have $5 million, you could pay yourself $50k a year for 100 years. There are taxes, but people who have 100 times the median household income in the bank might be able to figure something out. It makes sense that they're fighting for their money. And people deserve basic empathy, no matter what the situation. There could be solutions out there that make the most people happy. The cynical view is that this is their greed, and they are taking money from people with less means with their demands. Less cynically... we can try to find solutions to assure them their house value won't plummet, but encouraging a view where more prices at least stabilize won't put _that_ much strain on them, compared to the help it would give to other families with less means.
- bartedinburgh 9y ago
  If you have $5 million reasonably invested, you could pay yourself approximately $200k per year until you die (the average long-term expected return from the stock market is > 4% above inflation) and likely leave some cash to your kids.
azernik 9y ago
Perhaps a solution would be to allow people to sell a percentage of the equity in their homes - let them pull some money out of their investment, while still not having to move.
- exhilaration 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mortgage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mortgage That's usually marketed to older people.
wbl 9y ago
It's not pulled out. They can sell to developers. The value of the land below their feet will increase with broad upzoning. It's just they won't have their neighbors grow zucchinis.
andrewjl 9y ago
Nobody is forcing them to build this housing on their property. They own it, and it's theirs to do with as they like. They DON'T own the neighborhood and when others want to move onto another property they have no ownership interest in and that happens to be on their block, they don't have a property right to prevent that.
IkmoIkmo 9y ago
Sure, but these people aren't seeing their wealth erased. If anything, there'll be a discount of say 10-30%, probably realised over a period of 20 years, and there's a good chance the only effect it will have is that prices stop rising faster than income, but will rather stay stable. i.e., making it more affordable, without them losing any money. If that's the price that has to be paid, I think there's no moral argument to be made on this discussion, what remains is a legal-political challenge. Finally, I do believe this is all part of investing into the housing market. If you want a risk-free investment, choose government bonds. If you want to play the housing game, this is part of the story. You can't expect to invest a few million into an overpriced industry with a scarcity-controversy, and expect to reap risk-free rewards. Everyone who buys a house in these areas knows that your money pouring in and your legal defences are inadvertently screwing with housing affordability. If you're okay with that and want to make a risky investment, so be it. But then don't treat it like some kind of safe retirement plan you worked your entire life towards, it's not.

morgante 9y ago

> There's a hyperbole to express on both sides, but I can understand why people who are worth $1-5 million and are past their 50s might feel threatened by this sort of development. They can sell their house and live a life of luxury virtually anywhere else in the world. I have a hard time sympathizing with such people. They're not out anything—they're amongst the most privileged people in the country. Sure, I understand where they're coming from. That doesn't mean they have my sympathy. I understand why billionaires advocate for lowering their own taxes—that doesn't mean I give them an ounce of sympathy.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
einarvollset 9y ago
Give your mum a call (you’re clearly young, so she’s likely alive), tell her that she has to move to somewhere 5x cheaper. There are lots of places all over the world that would make sense. I understand why that might be uncomfortable for her - that doesn’t mean i should give her one ounce of sympathy. Amirite?
- morgante 9y ago
  My mom has moved plenty of times in her life. It's not like moving is a crazy abnormality—tons of people move when they retire.
  - XJOKOLAT 9y ago
    What a dumbass.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Of course - but if you worked hard all your life to live in a place that YOU like, I think it would be quite hard to accept someone else telling you to move,no?
- AlanSE 9y ago
  Plenty of people move for economic reasons in the transition to retirement. You're exactly right to put this kind of economic trend in personal terms - we should seek to do this. Nonetheless, I feel like a reference to "your mum" is more intended to shut down the conversation than anything else. I speak for plenty of people when I say that my own parents moved cities as they retired. For many of those who move for retirement, the place they most love doesn't perfectly align when the best place to work and raise children. That makes it an easy decision. My parents moved to a place with more family, lower cost of living, and easier access to commercial areas. The fact that it is hard to find a job in this place no longer played a major role. Sure, there are people living in Berkley and NYC who LOVE those places and want to die there. Still... that's not necessarily representative or even common. Many people move further away from urban centers even when starting a family.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- corprew 9y ago
  "you’re clearly young, so she’s likely alive" <-- why the youth-based insult here when you could have made your point easily without it.
- 9y ago

danmaz74 9y ago

I'm sorry, but I really can't shed a tear for the economic worries of people who are worth $1-5 million, when even in first World countries there are hundreds of millions of people who are scraping by with negative worths...

rtpg 9y ago

if you have $5 million, you could pay yourself $50k a year for 100 years. There are taxes, but people who have 100 times the median household income in the bank might be able to figure something out. It makes sense that they're fighting for their money. And people deserve basic empathy, no matter what the situation. There could be solutions out there that make the most people happy. The cynical view is that this is their greed, and they are taking money from people with less means with their demands. Less cynically... we can try to find solutions to assure them their house value won't plummet, but encouraging a view where more prices at least stabilize won't put _that_ much strain on them, compared to the help it would give to other families with less means.

bartedinburgh 9y ago
If you have $5 million reasonably invested, you could pay yourself approximately $200k per year until you die (the average long-term expected return from the stock market is > 4% above inflation) and likely leave some cash to your kids.

azernik 9y ago

Perhaps a solution would be to allow people to sell a percentage of the equity in their homes - let them pull some money out of their investment, while still not having to move.

exhilaration 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mortgage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mortgage That's usually marketed to older people.

wbl 9y ago

It's not pulled out. They can sell to developers. The value of the land below their feet will increase with broad upzoning. It's just they won't have their neighbors grow zucchinis.

andrewjl 9y ago

Nobody is forcing them to build this housing on their property. They own it, and it's theirs to do with as they like. They DON'T own the neighborhood and when others want to move onto another property they have no ownership interest in and that happens to be on their block, they don't have a property right to prevent that.

IkmoIkmo 9y ago

Sure, but these people aren't seeing their wealth erased. If anything, there'll be a discount of say 10-30%, probably realised over a period of 20 years, and there's a good chance the only effect it will have is that prices stop rising faster than income, but will rather stay stable. i.e., making it more affordable, without them losing any money. If that's the price that has to be paid, I think there's no moral argument to be made on this discussion, what remains is a legal-political challenge. Finally, I do believe this is all part of investing into the housing market. If you want a risk-free investment, choose government bonds. If you want to play the housing game, this is part of the story. You can't expect to invest a few million into an overpriced industry with a scarcity-controversy, and expect to reap risk-free rewards. Everyone who buys a house in these areas knows that your money pouring in and your legal defences are inadvertently screwing with housing affordability. If you're okay with that and want to make a risky investment, so be it. But then don't treat it like some kind of safe retirement plan you worked your entire life towards, it's not.