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There are two things wrong with this perspective. First, if you walk out of a four year degree in computer science without a strong foundation in discrete math

There are two things wrong with this perspective. First, if you walk out of a four year degree in computer science without a strong foundation in discrete mathematics, algorithms, data structures, and at least one of distributed systems theory, stochastic systems theory, control, statistics/machine learning, AI, data visualization, or design, you've stunted your horizons for growth as an engineer pretty badly. I use three of those every day at work. I wouldn't be able to read the research, do the math, or write the software to implement what I work on without a very strong education in fundamentals. The only CSE course I took in University that I haven't made active use of was an advanced matrix computation course. I mean, if you're just shitting out web services and REST APIs or converting COBOL to Java, fine, but that's something you can train a monkey (and in very short order, a computer) to do. Secondly, we invest in Universities as a public good. You should come out of a four year program able to write well, critically analyze difficult material (not "Catcher in the Rye"), articulate complex ideas persuasively, and understand the world you live in and how to live in it substantially better than when you went in. You might be surprised to learn that with the benefit of hindsight, many people find the time they spent reading and learning to be incredibly useful later in life, as it provided a foundation for dealing with conflict and complexity. If that's wasted on you, then it's wasted on you, but understand that you have shot yourself in the foot in terms of your ability to mature as a human being. I personally think public University education should be substantially more rigorous and should fail people aggressively, and should also be free. I wish we separated the whole "whoo look at me I'm 18-22 let's party" thing from the thought of University. If that's where you are in life at 18, there's nothing wrong with that... go work as a code monkey or a barista and get it out of your system, and when you're ready to level up as a human being give University a try, go. That's more or less what worked for me, anyway.

bordercases 9y ago
Where the heck do you work? How long did it take for you to get to that position? What was your role as a junior?
mangodrunk 9y ago
>You should come out of a four year program able to write well, critically analyze difficult material (not "Catcher in the Rye"), articulate complex ideas persuasively, and understand the world you live in and how to live in it substantially better than when you went in. What a great comment. I think that's also missed by schools where the focus is on memorization and/or trivia. It would be great if they focused on the areas you talked about, not necessarily directly, but at least that is the goal.
patientplatypus 9y ago
Well, not that it matters to my argument, but I did go to university, and did well (in the academic sense - much of my time would probably have been better spent drinking and networking rather than getting good grades). Personally I think it was an incredible waste of time. Even though I worked incredibly hard in many diverse subject areas, most of what I learned was taught at such an abstract level as to be completely unusable in any practical sense. Almost all of what I needed I later learned on the job as needed. Of all the things you've listed, why can't you just look them up on the internet or hire a tutor at worst? As far as "leveling up as a human being", books are free - go sit in a library. Hell, grab a kindle; most of the cool stuff that I learned about the human experience I learned from talking with others, staring at the sky, hiking in mountains, and reading free books that people on the internet recommend. None of this requires taking out the equivalent of a mortgage or listening to someone lecture on it. If you want a lecture, those are free online too! I just get the sense that university is used as a filter to differentiate yourself from people who are "below you" - not as smart, not as hard working, not as "mature as a human being". But the main barrier to get into a university seems to be connections and money, neither of which I have a huge amount of respect for. Many of the wealthiest and well connected people in the world are huge assholes, and many of the poorest and least connected are incredibly wise and kind (and intelligent and hard working). It feels like a way to separate yourself from the unwashed hoi polloi and put a barrier to entry between yourself and other people who could do your job. In that sense university encourages laziness! Overall, I just get this sense that university is this bullshit thing we all just agree to participate in because, for those who go they get a monetary benefit, even though everyone knows its just this bullshit thing. That monetary benefit comes from being a class filter, a networking tool for like minded rich people to find other like minded rich people, and probably a few other class effects I don't really understand. I thought when I was younger that as I got older that maybe I would get more jaded and just accept bullshit things. It would certainly make my life easier to do what other people do and not fight against the tide. But if anything I've become more altruistic and romantic, I want the world to be more honest and people to do the right thing. I don't know. I've probably benefitted from it even though I wished people judged me based on other qualities that are more important.
- noneedtoask 9y ago

bordercases 9y ago

Where the heck do you work? How long did it take for you to get to that position? What was your role as a junior?

mangodrunk 9y ago

>You should come out of a four year program able to write well, critically analyze difficult material (not "Catcher in the Rye"), articulate complex ideas persuasively, and understand the world you live in and how to live in it substantially better than when you went in. What a great comment. I think that's also missed by schools where the focus is on memorization and/or trivia. It would be great if they focused on the areas you talked about, not necessarily directly, but at least that is the goal.

patientplatypus 9y ago

Well, not that it matters to my argument, but I did go to university, and did well (in the academic sense - much of my time would probably have been better spent drinking and networking rather than getting good grades). Personally I think it was an incredible waste of time. Even though I worked incredibly hard in many diverse subject areas, most of what I learned was taught at such an abstract level as to be completely unusable in any practical sense. Almost all of what I needed I later learned on the job as needed. Of all the things you've listed, why can't you just look them up on the internet or hire a tutor at worst? As far as "leveling up as a human being", books are free - go sit in a library. Hell, grab a kindle; most of the cool stuff that I learned about the human experience I learned from talking with others, staring at the sky, hiking in mountains, and reading free books that people on the internet recommend. None of this requires taking out the equivalent of a mortgage or listening to someone lecture on it. If you want a lecture, those are free online too! I just get the sense that university is used as a filter to differentiate yourself from people who are "below you" - not as smart, not as hard working, not as "mature as a human being". But the main barrier to get into a university seems to be connections and money, neither of which I have a huge amount of respect for. Many of the wealthiest and well connected people in the world are huge assholes, and many of the poorest and least connected are incredibly wise and kind (and intelligent and hard working). It feels like a way to separate yourself from the unwashed hoi polloi and put a barrier to entry between yourself and other people who could do your job. In that sense university encourages laziness! Overall, I just get this sense that university is this bullshit thing we all just agree to participate in because, for those who go they get a monetary benefit, even though everyone knows its just this bullshit thing. That monetary benefit comes from being a class filter, a networking tool for like minded rich people to find other like minded rich people, and probably a few other class effects I don't really understand. I thought when I was younger that as I got older that maybe I would get more jaded and just accept bullshit things. It would certainly make my life easier to do what other people do and not fight against the tide. But if anything I've become more altruistic and romantic, I want the world to be more honest and people to do the right thing. I don't know. I've probably benefitted from it even though I wished people judged me based on other qualities that are more important.

noneedtoask 9y ago