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A UBI is supposed to only cover basic needs, most basic goods compete heavily on price so if the market as a whole raised their prices to take advantage of the

A UBI is supposed to only cover basic needs, most basic goods compete heavily on price so if the market as a whole raised their prices to take advantage of the increased available funds that would open up a space for a smaller company to capture more of the market by keeping their prices low. The biggest risk for exploitation of UBI is in housing, but that is already a problem even without UBI. On another note a $5k per month UBI would be excessive, I personally prefer starting with a $1k per month UBI and slowly ramping up to $2k then inflation adjusting from there.

Cshelton 9y ago
Where do you think this money to pay for a UBI is coming from? After reading Sam A's posts about UBI and the comments here on HN, I'm blown away. How can so many "smart" people disregard economics and be so so out of touch... Sam, if you see this, come live in Texas, or Kansas, or Georgia, or anywhere but your bubble for some time. Encourage your SV friends to do the same. I implore you to see just how out of touch with reality you are on this topic. And NO, taxing the rich wouldn't even be able to pay for it, they don't even have enough for that. Also, the rich are mobile, there would be no more rich. We'd all be poor with our $5k/mo if you took it from the rich. The current way of paying for federal programs is extremely unsustainable. Where will this new $5k/mo come from? Let's start a one level up from yourself: your employer. The first place to go for the UBI money. Guess what, only two things will happen if the costs of employees goes up for an employer. 1. They reduce the work force, 2. They raise prices. But now we have unemployed people receiving only $5k/mo. This cycle will continue and the only supply of money left is the fake money the gov "prints". What happens then? Who pays for it? Maybe look at Greece/Spain/Italy... Germany has somehow been suckered into paying for a large amount of their welfare. The U.K. was smart and bailed. But what if America followed suit? Who in the world will bail out America after that point? Who/what country will pay every American $5k/mo? Where does this end? The ONLY way to achieve covering the basic needs for the masses is if the resources for those needs were free. Both in money and energy. Power, free and unlimited. Food, free and unlimited. I've only skimmed the surface, and may not have provided the best examples above, but this is a topic that thousands of research papers are written on and even more discussion outside of that. It's too much. I'm still waiting for the day for someone to explain how trickle up economics works. I have yet to hear a convincing argument/example of it working, ever. It just doesn't. When was the last time a poor person offered you a job?
- eesmith 9y ago
  You asked: "Where do you think this money to pay for a UBI is coming from?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Affordability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Affordability gives an overview. For examples: "A 2012 affordability study done in the Republic of Ireland by Social Justice Ireland found that basic income would be affordable with a 45 percent income tax rate. This would lead to an improvement in income for the majority of the population." "Charles M.A. Clark estimates that the United States could support a Basic Income large enough to eliminate poverty and continue to fund all current government spending (except that which would be made redundant by the Basic Income) with a flat income tax of just under 39 percent." You also wrote "Also, the rich are mobile, there would be no more rich." Surprising, perhaps, but they in general aren't that mobile. They can afford to travel, certainly, but it's hard for most to uproot. Look at all the millionaires and billionaires living in New York City, even though taxes would be lower in "Texas, or Kansas, or Georgia".
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    Billionaires and even millionaires already lower their tax liability to the lowest possible level they don’t need to be physically mobile if they can be financially mobile.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      I think Cshelton specifically means physically mobile. For financially mobile, have a global wealth tax.
- TheSmiddy 9y ago
  Well $5k a month is a ludicrous idea because it's higher than the GDP per capita of the United States so is obviously unworkable. But I do think there is some merit to a lower amount such as $1k per month. I fail to see how increasing corporate tax is going to result in a downward spiral of constant layoffs. An efficient organisation should only be keeping employees who generate more value than they cost, even if the taxes on the profits were 95% this equation doesn't change. If I should be fired at 50% tax, then I should also be fired at 20% tax. >> I'm still waiting for the day for someone to explain how trickle up economics works. I have yet to hear a convincing argument/example of it working, ever. It just doesn't. When was the last time a poor person offered you a job? Poor people buy things, buying things shows demand for a product which creates a job to satisfy that demand. Jeff Bezos, currently the richest man in the world, isn't given his wealth by someone richer than him, he is given it by providing a service to millions of people poorer than him. By increasing the wealth of all people you increase demand across the board and create more wealth generating opportunities for more people.

Cshelton 9y ago

Where do you think this money to pay for a UBI is coming from? After reading Sam A's posts about UBI and the comments here on HN, I'm blown away. How can so many "smart" people disregard economics and be so so out of touch... Sam, if you see this, come live in Texas, or Kansas, or Georgia, or anywhere but your bubble for some time. Encourage your SV friends to do the same. I implore you to see just how out of touch with reality you are on this topic. And NO, taxing the rich wouldn't even be able to pay for it, they don't even have enough for that. Also, the rich are mobile, there would be no more rich. We'd all be poor with our $5k/mo if you took it from the rich. The current way of paying for federal programs is extremely unsustainable. Where will this new $5k/mo come from? Let's start a one level up from yourself: your employer. The first place to go for the UBI money. Guess what, only two things will happen if the costs of employees goes up for an employer. 1. They reduce the work force, 2. They raise prices. But now we have unemployed people receiving only $5k/mo. This cycle will continue and the only supply of money left is the fake money the gov "prints". What happens then? Who pays for it? Maybe look at Greece/Spain/Italy... Germany has somehow been suckered into paying for a large amount of their welfare. The U.K. was smart and bailed. But what if America followed suit? Who in the world will bail out America after that point? Who/what country will pay every American $5k/mo? Where does this end? The ONLY way to achieve covering the basic needs for the masses is if the resources for those needs were free. Both in money and energy. Power, free and unlimited. Food, free and unlimited. I've only skimmed the surface, and may not have provided the best examples above, but this is a topic that thousands of research papers are written on and even more discussion outside of that. It's too much. I'm still waiting for the day for someone to explain how trickle up economics works. I have yet to hear a convincing argument/example of it working, ever. It just doesn't. When was the last time a poor person offered you a job?

eesmith 9y ago
You asked: "Where do you think this money to pay for a UBI is coming from?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Affordability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Affordability gives an overview. For examples: "A 2012 affordability study done in the Republic of Ireland by Social Justice Ireland found that basic income would be affordable with a 45 percent income tax rate. This would lead to an improvement in income for the majority of the population." "Charles M.A. Clark estimates that the United States could support a Basic Income large enough to eliminate poverty and continue to fund all current government spending (except that which would be made redundant by the Basic Income) with a flat income tax of just under 39 percent." You also wrote "Also, the rich are mobile, there would be no more rich." Surprising, perhaps, but they in general aren't that mobile. They can afford to travel, certainly, but it's hard for most to uproot. Look at all the millionaires and billionaires living in New York City, even though taxes would be lower in "Texas, or Kansas, or Georgia".
- dogma1138 9y ago
  Billionaires and even millionaires already lower their tax liability to the lowest possible level they don’t need to be physically mobile if they can be financially mobile.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I think Cshelton specifically means physically mobile. For financially mobile, have a global wealth tax.
TheSmiddy 9y ago
Well $5k a month is a ludicrous idea because it's higher than the GDP per capita of the United States so is obviously unworkable. But I do think there is some merit to a lower amount such as $1k per month. I fail to see how increasing corporate tax is going to result in a downward spiral of constant layoffs. An efficient organisation should only be keeping employees who generate more value than they cost, even if the taxes on the profits were 95% this equation doesn't change. If I should be fired at 50% tax, then I should also be fired at 20% tax. >> I'm still waiting for the day for someone to explain how trickle up economics works. I have yet to hear a convincing argument/example of it working, ever. It just doesn't. When was the last time a poor person offered you a job? Poor people buy things, buying things shows demand for a product which creates a job to satisfy that demand. Jeff Bezos, currently the richest man in the world, isn't given his wealth by someone richer than him, he is given it by providing a service to millions of people poorer than him. By increasing the wealth of all people you increase demand across the board and create more wealth generating opportunities for more people.