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I've been spending a lot of time lately wondering if people who treat colleges and universities as though their job is worker training are confused, or if I'm n
by drewrv 9y ago
I've been spending a lot of time lately wondering if people who treat colleges and universities as though their job is worker training are confused, or if I'm naive in believing colleges and universities exist to expand human knowledge through research and education.
I suspect the answer is that our culture is confused, we want people who are smart and well rounded to also be useful. And the ugly side of it is, we want clear class divisions. One would never refer to law school or medical school as "vocational".
- rch 9y agoI've heard doctors speak of themselves as having a trade skill... albeit one that pays well.
- mrkurt 9y agoPeople aren't confused. Colleges do many things. They're also very expensive to attend, and the most immediate value they offer is to get people jobs
- codingdave 9y ago> One would never refer to law school or medical school as "vocational". Sure you would. They are 100% vocational schools. Their cost, acceptance rates, time commitment, and difficulty level may be higher than other vocational schools, but that doesn't change what they are -- 100% focused on giving you the knowledge and skills to do a specific job.
- Danihan 9y agoWell then where are all the "vocational" CS programs at universities?
- kingkawn 9y agoCoding Boot camps
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago... which are not at universities.
- inopinatus 9y agoAnd will also not prepare you for a job in computer science.
- enraged_camel 9y agoThey might prepare you for an intro-level job in software development though, if you actually continue learning things and honing your skills after completing them.
- djellybeans 9y agoFor what it's worth, these bootcamps are the current "trade schools" for software jobs where the barrier to entry is lower. They're accelerated programs that use job placement as a strong selling point. It's almost like they rose from the death of many for-profit technical schools (DeVry, WestWood et al.) and took their ecological niche. But in contrast to bootcamps, these for-profit schools were too big, slow, and ineffective.
- sharemywin 9y agoin the business college.
- AYBABTME 9y agoCanada has ‘software engineering’ degrees which are essentially vocational CS degrees.
- kat 9y agoTo add to this, Canadian Universities also have co-op programs. You don't have to have an engineering degree to get a co-op job. The student gets paid well over minimum wage (and learns on the job) and the employers get financial incentives from the gov't to hire students. Its win-win for both the student and the employer.
- dharness 9y agoSoftware Engineering at Canadian universities does not contain a dramatically different level of vocational training (with the exception of Waterloo). Co-op programs are optional, and take place in the summer or in a gap year. The affiliation of companies hosting co-ops is loose, and the schools charge large fees for participating in these programs (with the exception of Waterloo). Speaking from personal experience, results may vary.
- jholman 9y agoWhich Canadian schools have software engineering degrees which are vocational? Note that my degree is from a well-reputed Canadian school that has a "software engineering specialization", and as far as I can tell (though I did not take it) that specialization is indistinguishable from the main CS curriculum, and is not valid vocational training.
- rhizome 9y agoMedical and Law schools are postgraduate.
- maccard 9y agoIn some places. In Ireland, law is a normal undergraduate degree with some extra vocational training after you graduate. Medicine is an undergraduate (5 year) programme, during which quite a lot is vocational - students spend multiple months in hospitals during that period, and when they graduate they are still considered as training.
- icebraining 9y agoThat's the point - they are, but are not referred as such.
- cvwright 9y agoThey are in fact called "professional schools" -- this captures what both of you are saying.
- kod 9y agoLaw schools (or at least the top 20 school that I went to) are definitely not 100% focused on teaching you the vocation of being an attorney. Hell, they aren't even focused on teaching you to pass the bar, which is why most people pay for separate cram schools.
- acoard 9y agoYet, going to law school is a pre-requisite for becoming the vocation of a lawyer. Arguably, "a school one must go to in order to practice a vocation" can be referred to as a "vocational school." I understand that vocational schools are often thought to be purely practical and not theoretical, but I think this definition does a disservice to the reality of entering certain vocations.
- kod 9y agoNo, it is not a pre-requisite. At least in the U.S., several states still allow you to pass the bar and become a licensed attorney without going to law school.
- hammock 9y agoThey are actually called "professional" schools, but yeah it's a euphemism that means the same thing.
- dvdhnt 9y ago> And the ugly side of it is, we want clear class divisions. What? I suspect that it's typically, if not exclusively, those in the upper classes that want this. The ugly side of it is human nature is selfish.
- aeorgnoieang 9y agoActually, I suspect that it's the middle class (or middle classes for cultures with more than three classes) that are most anxious about being mistaken as lower class. Actual upper class members don't usually care – they're not relying on university attendance to protect their positions.
- toasterlovin 9y agoHigher education is used as a proxy for intelligence by companies who are hiring because they are not allowed to use IQ tests. So I think it kind of makes sense that our society is confused about the purpose of higher education.
- Danihan 9y agoFor fuck's sake, cut out the middle man and just request SAT / ACT scores.
- auxym 9y agoI'm canadian so have never taken these tests, but I was under the impression that a large component of scoring well on them is cramming?
- jx2zhou 9y agoYou're correct.
- losvedir 9y agoNot really. I think of the SAT as a great equalizer since a brilliant kid in rural Nebraska will do well and be able to go to an elite college, while a silver spoon heir will spend thousands and maybe improve their score but certainly not max it out. Not to toot my own horn but I got a perfect score on the math part of the SAT with little prep, and I've tutored others on the same and only managed to eke out a little improvement. (In contrast, I've tutored math course work and had more success there.) The math isn't very advanced, it's just a matter of doing it quickly and accurately.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> I think of the SAT as a great equalizer The truth is more nuanced [1]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/?utm_term=.3582505ca972 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these...
- santoshalper 9y agoI definitely would refer to law and medical schools as vocational, much more so than many other educational programs. I have known several people who went to medical or law school and every single one them went only because it is a per-requisite to becoming a doctor or lawyer. What is your explanation, that people attend these schools to expand their mind, and then entirely coincidentally, manage to end up in the corresponding career as though by accident? Get real.
- yesenadam 9y agoFascinating point. Is "training vs education" a useful pair of terms? Universities used to be for education, now often its assumed they are for training only. (Bachelor of Science in Hotel Management I come across nowadays - in what?!) I often hear people talk as if education was something that happened to them, then it finished. (Like learning is something you just do in an institution.) I guess training is more like that, teaching knowledge and skills for some particular task/role/job.