6 ms·

I sure would get a little uncomfortable if my $x told me he skipped college and learned everything from tutorials before $y $x = "software developer" $y = "we

by tkahn6 16y ago

I sure would get a little uncomfortable if my $x told me he skipped college and learned everything from tutorials before $y $x = "software developer" $y = "we made him head of this huge project without even evaluating his skills" I don't think it's so unreasonable for a surgeon to learn the traditional body of knowledge online, learn his way around an operating table IRL, take a test, and then go do his residency like every other doctor.

zyb09 16y ago
I think there just isn't enough good information out there for a surgeon. It's already hard to find good information on some obscurer topics of software development, like for example windows driver programming, where you won't go far without books and/or learning inside a company with knowledge about it. Now jump into a complete different profession and suddenly the web isn't all that big. How many useful & high-quality surgeon sites do you think are out there? Maybe 2-3? On the other hand learning iPhone programming, which may be all you need to get a job as a developer, is significant easier than any learning any other profession online, just given by how much information is available on the topic and how well it's presented.
- mcgraw 16y ago
  Right. But you're talking about 'as-is.' Someone could easily come along and change all of that with an amazing way to instruct people online. All of a sudden we have people that know a lot about medical topics or windows drivers instructing classes online.
- Ardit20 16y ago
  Even if there was plenty of information and the best online, it is very different to read something and to learn something. With programming is easy because you can just start coding and test for yourself and experiment and all that. You can't do all that if you want to be a surgeon. You can't just have a dead body sent to your house. It is a bit like a pharmacist or a chemist who has never mixed two compounds together but knows all about them, yet does not know for example what colour they are, or what do they actually look like, or what the actual reaction from mixing them looks like. I think another comment here made a good point. It is not just about the learning. It is also about teaching you how to think, and experience of course, practical experience. For example, I might be comfortable talking to a lawyer who got all his knowledge from the internet but only for reference, to ask him lets say what the law is, but I wouldn't hire him to argue a case for me. You can read all the books, or lectures, but without the practical experience of how to apply the law to facts which is then graded to give you an idea of whether you are applying it correctly and how to find things you do not know in the area of law where there often are conflicting points and maybe the law is not settled, and perhaps most importantly how to think like a lawyer, which argument would do, which evidence would do. Even if all of these things can be replaced through virtual stimulation, why would you want to sit in front of a computer for say three years on your own rather than share the experience with others and make friends and have the opportunity to be part of interesting student groups, and expand yourself in many more areas than just the core subject. I suppose it might be good for someone who might be thinking of a career change, if all those things can be replaced, but for an 18 year old, it would be very disadvantageous. In any event, as things currently are Gates is very much dreaming. People have access to textbooks yet they hardly have replaced universities though pretty much they teach what is in the text book in the lectures which are only a small part of undergrad courses.
gcheong 16y ago
I imagine with VR getting better and better, a surgeon could eventually train for new procedures much the same way pilots get trained in simulators to handle different scenarios.
- ippisl 16y ago
  There already some companies working on medical simulators. and some medical schools use them. but some simulators need special manipulators to be effective , so it's hard to deliver them over the internet. And obviously , using simulators can offer great results: """ The residents had displayed similar psychomotor skills, but the two groups performed very differently in the O.R. Those who had trained on the simulator completed the operation, on average, twenty-nine per cent faster than those who had not. Moreover, the residents who had received standard surgical training were nine times more likely to hesitate during the operation, five times more likely to injure the gallbladder or burn surrounding tissues, and six times more likely to make other errors. Additional research has shown that simulator training significantly enhances performance of hernia repairs, nasal sinus procedures, and bronchoscopic examinations of the lungs. """ http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/02/050502fa_fact?currentPage=4#ixzz0vtxmC6en http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/02/050502fa_fact?cu...
- mirkules 16y ago
  There are some procedures, such as laperoscopic (sp?) procedures, that the surgeon does "remotely" - I mean, in close proximity of the patient, but not actually holding the tools. Are there difficulties that would prevent a surgeon from performing these procedures from someplace else?
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by tkahn6 16y ago

zyb09 16y ago

I think there just isn't enough good information out there for a surgeon. It's already hard to find good information on some obscurer topics of software development, like for example windows driver programming, where you won't go far without books and/or learning inside a company with knowledge about it. Now jump into a complete different profession and suddenly the web isn't all that big. How many useful & high-quality surgeon sites do you think are out there? Maybe 2-3? On the other hand learning iPhone programming, which may be all you need to get a job as a developer, is significant easier than any learning any other profession online, just given by how much information is available on the topic and how well it's presented.

mcgraw 16y ago
Right. But you're talking about 'as-is.' Someone could easily come along and change all of that with an amazing way to instruct people online. All of a sudden we have people that know a lot about medical topics or windows drivers instructing classes online.
Ardit20 16y ago
Even if there was plenty of information and the best online, it is very different to read something and to learn something. With programming is easy because you can just start coding and test for yourself and experiment and all that. You can't do all that if you want to be a surgeon. You can't just have a dead body sent to your house. It is a bit like a pharmacist or a chemist who has never mixed two compounds together but knows all about them, yet does not know for example what colour they are, or what do they actually look like, or what the actual reaction from mixing them looks like. I think another comment here made a good point. It is not just about the learning. It is also about teaching you how to think, and experience of course, practical experience. For example, I might be comfortable talking to a lawyer who got all his knowledge from the internet but only for reference, to ask him lets say what the law is, but I wouldn't hire him to argue a case for me. You can read all the books, or lectures, but without the practical experience of how to apply the law to facts which is then graded to give you an idea of whether you are applying it correctly and how to find things you do not know in the area of law where there often are conflicting points and maybe the law is not settled, and perhaps most importantly how to think like a lawyer, which argument would do, which evidence would do. Even if all of these things can be replaced through virtual stimulation, why would you want to sit in front of a computer for say three years on your own rather than share the experience with others and make friends and have the opportunity to be part of interesting student groups, and expand yourself in many more areas than just the core subject. I suppose it might be good for someone who might be thinking of a career change, if all those things can be replaced, but for an 18 year old, it would be very disadvantageous. In any event, as things currently are Gates is very much dreaming. People have access to textbooks yet they hardly have replaced universities though pretty much they teach what is in the text book in the lectures which are only a small part of undergrad courses.

gcheong 16y ago

I imagine with VR getting better and better, a surgeon could eventually train for new procedures much the same way pilots get trained in simulators to handle different scenarios.

ippisl 16y ago
There already some companies working on medical simulators. and some medical schools use them. but some simulators need special manipulators to be effective , so it's hard to deliver them over the internet. And obviously , using simulators can offer great results: """ The residents had displayed similar psychomotor skills, but the two groups performed very differently in the O.R. Those who had trained on the simulator completed the operation, on average, twenty-nine per cent faster than those who had not. Moreover, the residents who had received standard surgical training were nine times more likely to hesitate during the operation, five times more likely to injure the gallbladder or burn surrounding tissues, and six times more likely to make other errors. Additional research has shown that simulator training significantly enhances performance of hernia repairs, nasal sinus procedures, and bronchoscopic examinations of the lungs. """ http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/02/050502fa_fact?currentPage=4#ixzz0vtxmC6en http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/02/050502fa_fact?cu...
mirkules 16y ago
There are some procedures, such as laperoscopic (sp?) procedures, that the surgeon does "remotely" - I mean, in close proximity of the patient, but not actually holding the tools. Are there difficulties that would prevent a surgeon from performing these procedures from someplace else?
- deleted 16y ago
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