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Well this is true if you want to be a software developer. You can get very skilled and competent just learning online. For everything else I don't know... I sur

by zyb09 16y ago

Well this is true if you want to be a software developer. You can get very skilled and competent just learning online. For everything else I don't know... I sure would get a little uncomfortable if my surgeon told me he skipped college and learned everything from tutorials before he gave me my anesthesia.

andreyf 16y ago
Well this is true if you want to be a software developer. Or a mathematician, director, physicist, screen writer, journalist, accountant, statistician, historian, designer, botanist, cook, mechanic, etc. Now that I think of it, most professions already have online communities for discussion and group learning of skills which one self-motivated enough to study. What's most blatantly missing is the accreditation: it's not easy to cheat the accreditation system at a University (mostly because the experience of academic culture is what gives the accreditation validity), but it's a lot easier to "cheat" online.
- siglesias 16y ago
  Whoa whoa whoa, WHAT? Historian, cook, screen writer, journalist, director? On what planet can directorial skills be conveyed via a lecture video clip? Did CalArts, which graduated Tim Burton, John Lasseter, Pete Docter, Joe Ranft, and countless other masters of animation do so simply by showing them what amounted to the same stock lectures with some automated method of remote feedback? Or was it instead significantly in part a communal learning experience that involved peer criticism and one on one tutelage from professors who were in the room with them as they drew and developed their craft? I'm sorry, but believe it or not, not all professional skills can be remotely acquired without a kind of human transference of intangible, personable skills. Education in higher academia is about much more than the acquisition of particular facts--it's a culture, practice, and way of life. Critical ideas are meant to be discussed in person, ruminated on, and debated in real, highly dynamic discussions. Real life work environments, especially in software companies, are ones in which critical, GROUP brainstorming dynamics are particularly important, because oftentimes the answer doesn't lie in the answer key in the back of the book, but rather as a result of a group process of rumination, guess, check, and revision.
  - mcgraw 16y ago
    Video Chat. It's a completely different way of thinking, no doubt about that. I love the university atmosphere.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - siglesias 16y ago
    @mcgraw5 I guess I'm coming from the angle that most of my humanities courses in undergrad took place in seminar settings, and the discussions that we had were sublime, in part because we could share moments of intense intellectual discussion. I simply can't see that happening well with the same group of 11 + a professor over video chat.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    Oops, I think we're talking past each other, or maybe I was projecting my own ideas on the article too much. I agree with you completely - actually, I can't think of any profession where video lectures alone would get you a real understanding of the material (maybe accounting?). Even when I studied abstract math, I learned a lot more in study groups and office hours than I did during lecture. My point isn't that a good set of lecture videos will be world-changing (we've had broadcast video for awhile now). My point is that that the learning all of these subjects can have a strong web component to augment the process (and "web" doesn't necessarily mean video). Maybe when I put it that way, it sounds almost obvious. A stronger statement: whatever form web-augmented learning takes in the next century will improve learning so drastically we'll barely recognize it.
    - siglesias 16y ago
      Ah, perhaps we are talking past each other. I completely agree about the web being integral to the learning experience: from printing out course readings to working online exercises. I suppose where I'm coming from is speaking out against the idea that higher education is simply about learning facts and rote methods. To me it's ALSO about interaction and the group learning/creating dynamic, and that can't be parceled out through the web, and to that end I fundamentally disagree with Mr. Gates. But he's a world famous autodidact; I can see where he gets this impression.
tkahn6 16y ago
I sure would get a little uncomfortable if my $x told me he skipped college and learned everything from tutorials before $y $x = "software developer" $y = "we made him head of this huge project without even evaluating his skills" I don't think it's so unreasonable for a surgeon to learn the traditional body of knowledge online, learn his way around an operating table IRL, take a test, and then go do his residency like every other doctor.
- zyb09 16y ago
  I think there just isn't enough good information out there for a surgeon. It's already hard to find good information on some obscurer topics of software development, like for example windows driver programming, where you won't go far without books and/or learning inside a company with knowledge about it. Now jump into a complete different profession and suddenly the web isn't all that big. How many useful & high-quality surgeon sites do you think are out there? Maybe 2-3? On the other hand learning iPhone programming, which may be all you need to get a job as a developer, is significant easier than any learning any other profession online, just given by how much information is available on the topic and how well it's presented.
  - mcgraw 16y ago
    Right. But you're talking about 'as-is.' Someone could easily come along and change all of that with an amazing way to instruct people online. All of a sudden we have people that know a lot about medical topics or windows drivers instructing classes online.
  - Ardit20 16y ago
    Even if there was plenty of information and the best online, it is very different to read something and to learn something. With programming is easy because you can just start coding and test for yourself and experiment and all that. You can't do all that if you want to be a surgeon. You can't just have a dead body sent to your house. It is a bit like a pharmacist or a chemist who has never mixed two compounds together but knows all about them, yet does not know for example what colour they are, or what do they actually look like, or what the actual reaction from mixing them looks like. I think another comment here made a good point. It is not just about the learning. It is also about teaching you how to think, and experience of course, practical experience. For example, I might be comfortable talking to a lawyer who got all his knowledge from the internet but only for reference, to ask him lets say what the law is, but I wouldn't hire him to argue a case for me. You can read all the books, or lectures, but without the practical experience of how to apply the law to facts which is then graded to give you an idea of whether you are applying it correctly and how to find things you do not know in the area of law where there often are conflicting points and maybe the law is not settled, and perhaps most importantly how to think like a lawyer, which argument would do, which evidence would do. Even if all of these things can be replaced through virtual stimulation, why would you want to sit in front of a computer for say three years on your own rather than share the experience with others and make friends and have the opportunity to be part of interesting student groups, and expand yourself in many more areas than just the core subject. I suppose it might be good for someone who might be thinking of a career change, if all those things can be replaced, but for an 18 year old, it would be very disadvantageous. In any event, as things currently are Gates is very much dreaming. People have access to textbooks yet they hardly have replaced universities though pretty much they teach what is in the text book in the lectures which are only a small part of undergrad courses.
rsheridan6 16y ago
Your anesthesiologist could have probably done 75% of his coursework online with no loss of quality. Most of his classes involved sitting in giant lecture halls listening to a professor read more or less verbatim from a powerpoint or earlier equivalent.
ZeroGravitas 16y ago
And luckily there is no software at all in the machines that monitor your vital signs, decide how much medicine or radiation you need, route your ambulance etc.
PanMan 16y ago
Maybe in your world (and mine). But in pourer countries, many people will prefer a surgeon who read the course online, than no surgeon at all. Mlearing and mhealth will be huge in developing countries.
istari 16y ago
What you should be worried about is practical experience, not accreditation. The reason why you feel comfortable with a self taught software developer is because you can write and run software on your own. Let's say you got shot. Who would you want to operate on you, someone who went to medical school but probably didn't see too many gunshot wounds, or someone from a field hospital in Iraq who operated on hundreds of cases but does not have a medical degree?

by zyb09 16y ago

andreyf 16y ago

Well this is true if you want to be a software developer. Or a mathematician, director, physicist, screen writer, journalist, accountant, statistician, historian, designer, botanist, cook, mechanic, etc. Now that I think of it, most professions already have online communities for discussion and group learning of skills which one self-motivated enough to study. What's most blatantly missing is the accreditation: it's not easy to cheat the accreditation system at a University (mostly because the experience of academic culture is what gives the accreditation validity), but it's a lot easier to "cheat" online.

siglesias 16y ago
Whoa whoa whoa, WHAT? Historian, cook, screen writer, journalist, director? On what planet can directorial skills be conveyed via a lecture video clip? Did CalArts, which graduated Tim Burton, John Lasseter, Pete Docter, Joe Ranft, and countless other masters of animation do so simply by showing them what amounted to the same stock lectures with some automated method of remote feedback? Or was it instead significantly in part a communal learning experience that involved peer criticism and one on one tutelage from professors who were in the room with them as they drew and developed their craft? I'm sorry, but believe it or not, not all professional skills can be remotely acquired without a kind of human transference of intangible, personable skills. Education in higher academia is about much more than the acquisition of particular facts--it's a culture, practice, and way of life. Critical ideas are meant to be discussed in person, ruminated on, and debated in real, highly dynamic discussions. Real life work environments, especially in software companies, are ones in which critical, GROUP brainstorming dynamics are particularly important, because oftentimes the answer doesn't lie in the answer key in the back of the book, but rather as a result of a group process of rumination, guess, check, and revision.
- mcgraw 16y ago
  Video Chat. It's a completely different way of thinking, no doubt about that. I love the university atmosphere.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- siglesias 16y ago
  @mcgraw5 I guess I'm coming from the angle that most of my humanities courses in undergrad took place in seminar settings, and the discussions that we had were sublime, in part because we could share moments of intense intellectual discussion. I simply can't see that happening well with the same group of 11 + a professor over video chat.
- andreyf 16y ago
  Oops, I think we're talking past each other, or maybe I was projecting my own ideas on the article too much. I agree with you completely - actually, I can't think of any profession where video lectures alone would get you a real understanding of the material (maybe accounting?). Even when I studied abstract math, I learned a lot more in study groups and office hours than I did during lecture. My point isn't that a good set of lecture videos will be world-changing (we've had broadcast video for awhile now). My point is that that the learning all of these subjects can have a strong web component to augment the process (and "web" doesn't necessarily mean video). Maybe when I put it that way, it sounds almost obvious. A stronger statement: whatever form web-augmented learning takes in the next century will improve learning so drastically we'll barely recognize it.
  - siglesias 16y ago
    Ah, perhaps we are talking past each other. I completely agree about the web being integral to the learning experience: from printing out course readings to working online exercises. I suppose where I'm coming from is speaking out against the idea that higher education is simply about learning facts and rote methods. To me it's ALSO about interaction and the group learning/creating dynamic, and that can't be parceled out through the web, and to that end I fundamentally disagree with Mr. Gates. But he's a world famous autodidact; I can see where he gets this impression.

tkahn6 16y ago

I sure would get a little uncomfortable if my $x told me he skipped college and learned everything from tutorials before $y $x = "software developer" $y = "we made him head of this huge project without even evaluating his skills" I don't think it's so unreasonable for a surgeon to learn the traditional body of knowledge online, learn his way around an operating table IRL, take a test, and then go do his residency like every other doctor.

zyb09 16y ago
I think there just isn't enough good information out there for a surgeon. It's already hard to find good information on some obscurer topics of software development, like for example windows driver programming, where you won't go far without books and/or learning inside a company with knowledge about it. Now jump into a complete different profession and suddenly the web isn't all that big. How many useful & high-quality surgeon sites do you think are out there? Maybe 2-3? On the other hand learning iPhone programming, which may be all you need to get a job as a developer, is significant easier than any learning any other profession online, just given by how much information is available on the topic and how well it's presented.
- mcgraw 16y ago
  Right. But you're talking about 'as-is.' Someone could easily come along and change all of that with an amazing way to instruct people online. All of a sudden we have people that know a lot about medical topics or windows drivers instructing classes online.
- Ardit20 16y ago
  Even if there was plenty of information and the best online, it is very different to read something and to learn something. With programming is easy because you can just start coding and test for yourself and experiment and all that. You can't do all that if you want to be a surgeon. You can't just have a dead body sent to your house. It is a bit like a pharmacist or a chemist who has never mixed two compounds together but knows all about them, yet does not know for example what colour they are, or what do they actually look like, or what the actual reaction from mixing them looks like. I think another comment here made a good point. It is not just about the learning. It is also about teaching you how to think, and experience of course, practical experience. For example, I might be comfortable talking to a lawyer who got all his knowledge from the internet but only for reference, to ask him lets say what the law is, but I wouldn't hire him to argue a case for me. You can read all the books, or lectures, but without the practical experience of how to apply the law to facts which is then graded to give you an idea of whether you are applying it correctly and how to find things you do not know in the area of law where there often are conflicting points and maybe the law is not settled, and perhaps most importantly how to think like a lawyer, which argument would do, which evidence would do. Even if all of these things can be replaced through virtual stimulation, why would you want to sit in front of a computer for say three years on your own rather than share the experience with others and make friends and have the opportunity to be part of interesting student groups, and expand yourself in many more areas than just the core subject. I suppose it might be good for someone who might be thinking of a career change, if all those things can be replaced, but for an 18 year old, it would be very disadvantageous. In any event, as things currently are Gates is very much dreaming. People have access to textbooks yet they hardly have replaced universities though pretty much they teach what is in the text book in the lectures which are only a small part of undergrad courses.

rsheridan6 16y ago

Your anesthesiologist could have probably done 75% of his coursework online with no loss of quality. Most of his classes involved sitting in giant lecture halls listening to a professor read more or less verbatim from a powerpoint or earlier equivalent.

ZeroGravitas 16y ago

And luckily there is no software at all in the machines that monitor your vital signs, decide how much medicine or radiation you need, route your ambulance etc.

PanMan 16y ago

Maybe in your world (and mine). But in pourer countries, many people will prefer a surgeon who read the course online, than no surgeon at all. Mlearing and mhealth will be huge in developing countries.

istari 16y ago

What you should be worried about is practical experience, not accreditation. The reason why you feel comfortable with a self taught software developer is because you can write and run software on your own. Let's say you got shot. Who would you want to operate on you, someone who went to medical school but probably didn't see too many gunshot wounds, or someone from a field hospital in Iraq who operated on hundreds of cases but does not have a medical degree?