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> The automaker is using the all-electric Chevrolet Bolt as its autonomous mule Wonderful. Has anyone tried the Bolt yet? I think Bolt is turning out to be wh

• CaveTech 9y ago
  While the tech and features are pretty great, I think many disagree with it looking slick. I'm in the market right now, but I could never see myself driving a Bolt. I'm stuck waiting several years for a model 3 to get an EV with actual aesthetics (that isn't 100k+).
  • ams6110 9y ago
    I agree and disagree. I don't think the Bolt looks much worse than any other contemporary small car. The new Prius is worse IMO. The Leaf and the i3 are likewise ugly. I agree the Model 3 looks better than any of them. Edit: I will say I like the look of the Ford Focus EV much better than the Bolt, it's quite a bit cheaper, and I like Ford better as a company, but the Focus EV has only about half the range of the Bolt.
    • digikata 9y ago
      My aesthetics seem to match yours. I do like the look of the latest Volt update - much better design direction then the new Prius.
  • pen2l 9y ago
    I honestly really like Bolt's look, and not because it "stands out" as being electric. I like crossovers (Prius, Impreza, etc.) and I think this one has great aesthetics. I like model 3 less, but that's just me. Different strokes for different folks hey. (but I will concede on one thing if we're talking about pure aesthetics: Tesla's "T" logo is really cool, Chevrolet's "+" is anything but. I honestly think they should change the logo. As established as that brand and logo may be, they should be targeting the newer generation... "Chevrolet" definitely does not scream cool to anyone born in the last 40 years)
    • JBlue42 9y ago
      Cross-overs are pretty popular. There was an article not too long ago about how they pretty much all blend in together. The Bolt looks more like European cars than what we imagine 'American' cars looking like (though that has changed over the decades). We'll see many more like it as more people move to cities but still need cars. Yeah, Chevy doesn't scream cool. I've had an Acura since 2003 and knock on wood will drive it until it's dead. I wouldn't put as much stock in an American-made car to last as long.
    • vinay427 9y ago
      I believe you mean hatchbacks or wagons (for some generations of the Impreza), not crossovers.
  • mikestew 9y ago
    I'm stuck waiting several years for a model 3 to get an EV with actual aesthetics (that isn't 100k+). The aesthetics that say, "I entered 'generic electric vehicle' on iStockPhoto, and this is what I got."? I own lots of TSLA, I'd even consider buying a Tesla when the Leaf dies, but that purchase would be despite the aesthetics of any Tesla, not because of. But to each their own. As long as what's available today isn't the aesthetic equivalent of the Pontiac Aztek, I wouldn't put off a purchase for several years just for looks. Though I also own a Leaf and an original body style Scion xB, and I'm sad that the Honda Element is no longer made. Do not look to me for fashion advice.
    • jhall1468 9y ago
      I'll take the iStockPhoto over a rounded off Ford Festiva any day of the week.
  • toomuchtodo 9y ago
    You can get a used Model S with 20k-40k miles on it with a 4 year 50k mile warranty for ~$55k straight from Tesla, no need to spend $100k.
    • madengr 9y ago
      No need to spend $55k. I bought a 2015 Leaf with 19k miles for $8.5k. Of course it dos not look good like a Tesla, but if you want to get your feet wet with EV driving, it's a steal.
      • toomuchtodo 9y ago
        I travel frequently across the US, and require the Supercharger network (which is why I went with a Model S over a Leaf), but as you mentioned, you can get a Leaf at golf cart prices. You can also get a top notch used Model S for a bit more than you'd spend for a long range Model 3 (which includes free supercharger access) if you don't want to wait 2 years for it.
      • King-Aaron 9y ago
        > No need to spend $55k. I bought a 2015 Leaf While I see what you mean, this comparison isn't all that dissimilar to saying "No need to buy a 5 series BMW, you can get a Nissan Micra for less!" I wouldn't imagine that a person looking to buy a large, fast sedan that can get from 0-100kph in under a handful of seconds is going to consider a small runabout in the same decision making process...
  • evo_9 9y ago
    I recently bought a 2017 BMW i3 and love it. It's about 55k loaded up and pretty fun/quick compared to most EV's, and I love the styling. http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/i3/2017/2017-bmw-i3-range-extender-first-test-review/ http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/i3/2017/2017-bmw-i3-range... Also used models in Denver are selling for 25k or less; might be the best deal in EV's right now.
    • reaperducer 9y ago
      As said by someone else, to each his own. But a friend of mine has an i3 and every time I ride in it, I'm underwhelmed. It's like if IKEA designed a car. If I'm riding in a BMW, I expect a certain amount of luxury, not bamboo and vast open spaces where the dashboard should be.
  • rhino369 9y ago
    Model 3 is pretty stylish on the outside, but the interior is garbage for a 30k car. Bolt's isn't good either.
  • threeseed 9y ago
    I assume you're only talking about exterior aesthetics. Because the interiors of Tesla cars are extremely poor compared to even the lowest end cars. Poor quality, cheap looking plastics and leathers. And the large screen looks tacky and easy to date.
  • zodPod 9y ago
    Yes, seriously, ew. It looks awful.
• pseudometa 9y ago
  The Model 3 was aimed at the BMW 3 series audience. The Bolt is much more in line with a Toyota Yaris, but twice the price.
  • cmrdporcupine 9y ago
    The Bolt is based off the Trax/Encore platform, with modifications for better efficiency.
  • gamblor956 9y ago
    Only on the outside. On the inside, excluding the touchscreen the interior of the Tesla 3 (and really, all Teslas excluding the original Roadsters) has more in common with a Yaris or 90s era Kia then a Model 3 or entry-level Lexus. For people with multiple cars, it's not much of an issue for things to be just a little off (the plastic, the handles, the seat fabrics, steering wheel alignment, shavings on the dash board, etc.)--the Tesla is a show car and treated as such. For people who would use the Model 3 as their primary vehicle, the experience is subpar for its current price point compared to all other vehicles in its class (entry level luxury vehicles) or engine type (other EVs) and this is one of the difficulties Tesla will run into once it actually starts public shipments of the car. There's enough competition out there now that being an electric isn't enough to justify a premium price; the car has to have premium interiors as well. Source: my boss has all of them. I ride shotgun quite frequently.
    • ajross 9y ago
      I think you're wildly overestimating the sophistication of car buyers. Luxury car buyers, fundamentally, are buying the logo, and the handful of obviously markers inside the car that tell people it's a Lexus or whatever. They aren't buying fit and finish, even if they think they are. Tesla buyers are no different: they want a Tesla, not a Lexus or a Mercedes. I'm sure to the trained eye a Lexus has a different build than a Tesla, just as cheeses and wines are different. That's not what drives sales.
      • gamblor956 9y ago
• mtgx 9y ago
  All of those characteristics are worse than Model 3, so I'm not sure what you mean by "what the Model 3 was supposed to be". 1) Bolt is $2500 more than Model 3 pre-credit. 2) How well it rides is debatable, but it doesn't have anywhere near the same performance as Model 3. For instance, it has a motor power of 150 kW vs 300 kW for Model 3, and its acceleration is significantly worse, too. 3) It looks like a typical boxy hatchback. Finally, we already know GM loses $9,000 per Bolt and it seems to have been losing 10,000 euro for the Bolt-based Ampera-E in Europe. What this tells us is that it's more of a compliance car/EV mascot for GM than a model they actually intend to have everywhere. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dollars-per-car-on-chevy-bolt.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dolla... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-peugeot-gm-opel-exclusive/exclusive-psa-seeks-opel-refund-from-gm-over-co2-emissions-idUSKBN1DT1NA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-peugeot-gm-opel-exclusive... GM has sold 3,000 Bolt units so far in 2017. Tesla will sell hundreds of thousands of Model 3s in 2018. I don't think GM will be in a hurry to catch up to them going by those losses.
  • jdpedrie 9y ago
    > GM has sold 3,000 Bolt units so far in 2017. Tesla will sell hundreds of thousands of Model 3s in 2018. The difference is, GM can actually manufacture the cars it sells.
    • mtgx 9y ago
      Yes, at a loss. Do you actually think GM who are "so good at manufacturing" will sell more EVs than Tesla will sell Model 3's by the end of next year? I won't even include Model S and X, to make it more fair.
      • gamblor956 9y ago
        Tesla also currently sells Model 3s at a loss using the same GAAP[1] accounting metrics GM uses. (Their latest quarterly report states that they're not even break even on a non-GAAP method of accounting.[2]) The difference is that GM can afford to absorb the loss while it ramps up production. Tesla needs the Model 3 to be profitable, or the company dies. [1]GAAP = generally accepted accounting principles. In other words, standardized methods of accounting for profit and loss. Tesla uses non-standard (i.e., non-GAAP) accounting in its financial reports to paint a rosier picture of its financial state than GAAP reporting would provide. Some people say that non-GAAP reporting paints a more accurate picture of a company than GAAP. This might be true for new industries that don't have sufficient history to establish industry-specific GAAP. However, the auto industry has been around for more than 100+ years, so the use of non-GAAP accounting by Tesla and Faraday is generally indicative of unstable financial health. [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2017/11/01/tesla-pins-model-3-production-snag-on-battery-packs-as-quarterly-loss-widens/#514f08585488 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2017/11/01/tesla-pi...
• dr_ 9y ago
  I don't have the Bolt, but I do have a vehicle with top down view, which was not something I was interested in much when looking for cars, but it came with the package. i agree, it's a god send, and has prevented my car from getting dinged or scratched in more than one occassion.
• gamblor956 9y ago
  The Bolt is a wonderful car for the price, except for the looks. But the distinctive/garish appearance is deliberate--the Bolt is designed for people who want to be seen driving an electric car but can't afford a Tesla. Luckily, it's only a matter of time before the electric motors start showing up in non-Bolt lines.
  • taneq 9y ago
    I think this is one of the things that Toyota has done really right. Their hybrid drivetrain has made its way into a few models now (Corolla, Camry, Prius) and it's never a big thing, just a feature of the vehicle. I'm a longtime proponent of EVs and I've always hated the way that car companies feel compelled to turn any electric offering into a science project freak show. To my mind this is the number 1 thing that Tesla has done right with their vehicles. They don't sell "Electric Vehicles", they sell vehicles. Which kick ass. And happen to be electric.
    • GoToRO 9y ago
      The ugly looks is how those companies dealt with the fact that they didn't want to kill their regular models. You want electric? Here it is! Ewww...
    • m_fayer 9y ago
      I think they've even done one better. They've managed to associate, in the public's mind, the idea of "electric drivetrain" with "conventional but stunning good looks" with "amazing performance."
    • rhino369 9y ago
      Toyota basically started this trend by making the Prius ugly and distinctive. Which is why Prius's sell very well but other hybrid drive trains in normal looking cars don't. You don't get cool points for driving a Camry Hybrid.
      • taneq 9y ago
        I dunno, the Insight looked pretty weird, with it's Citroen-esque covered rear wheels and its super-sleek exterior. But otherwise... I see where you're going with the "make hybrids/electrics look different so they'll gain cred" but it seems to be belied by most manufacturers' "here's a weird-ass dork car, you won't buy it right?" thing. Even the Bolt (which I'd argue is one of the better-looking non-Tesla EVs) is kind of klunky-looking.
• Cshelton 9y ago
  Ok... What the Model 3 was intended to be??? First thing, cheap? The Bolt starts at $37,495. Straight from GM's website. That is pretty much the same as the Model 3. Electric, check. But with the Bolt, you are maxed out at 238 miles EPA range. With the model 3, your base is higher and if needed you can get over 300+, I believe the EPA just rated it out somewhere in the 320's for the Long range version. Perfect. I think you are one of the few who would call the Bolt "slick", especially in relation to Tesla, but to each their own. Rides excellent.. yeah, the Model 3 does that well, see MotorTrend's review even.. [1] Parallel parking manually... that's cute. Model 3 does it autonomously. I'm pretty lost on where you think the Model 3 fell short of expectations and isn't what it was intended to be? To top it off, I just checked 5 Chevy dealers around me locally (I'm in the third largest metro in the U.S.) and not one had a Bolt in inventory. I have actually never seen one on the roads either. So the "you can get it today" argument is very limited to only a few markets... and that is a maybe. Don't forget that the Chevy Bolt is also a compliance car. I'm sure the quality and engineering time put into it was top-notch. [1] http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-tesla-model-3-first-drive-review/ http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-...
• deleted 9y ago
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• imh 9y ago
  I had a lyft ride in one last weekend and chatted with the driver about it. I agree it looks nice. The interior was great and the ride was comfy. The driver was very enthusiastic about how much he loved the car. Plug it in over night, drive to SF and do lyft all day, then drive home. He didn't share my concerns over the range at all.
  • jessriedel 9y ago
    He drove all day and didn't exceed the 238 mile range?
    • maherbeg 9y ago
      I imagine city driving in start/stop traffic to be a perfect use case for EVs. Regenerative braking will recoup lots of battery through out the day, and you don't lose much to drag at highway speeds.
      • jessriedel 9y ago
        Driving 100% in the city only ups the EPA range estimate to 256 miles. http://pushevs.com/2016/11/23/electric-cars-range-efficiency-comparison/ http://pushevs.com/2016/11/23/electric-cars-range-efficiency... In addition, the guy mentioned commuted in, presumably on the highway.
        • jschwartzi 9y ago
          The EPA range probably uses a profile more like a commute from one point into the city versus another. It may not be an adequate representation of what a Lyft driver actually does during their work hours.
    • 2389yjjjl 9y ago
      Anecdotal, last year as a personal curiosity, I drove for Lyft over 6 weeks, but only 16 hours/wk (2 days x 8 hrs), I was hitting 65-70 miles per 8 hours. In a metro of 2 million people and change. This was in a 2012 Accord, not an EV. But yeah it seems do-able in a modern EV. Most urban dwellers daily driving is never more than like 20 miles all-day.
• drewg123 9y ago
  We looked at a Bolt. We mostly liked it, except the seats are incredibly uncomfortable. I'm not even close to obese, and the seat bottoms were just too narrow to be comfortable. It is odd, as there is plenty of space to either side of the seat with the doors closed .. they could have made them wider, but chose not to. At least one reviewer agrees: https://youtu.be/d2ogGZXmepY?t=626 https://youtu.be/d2ogGZXmepY?t=626
• stetrain 9y ago
  Honestly I had a change to sit in one recently and found the interior materials, seats, etc. to be pretty bad for the price. The big digital displays were nice, but the rest of the interior seemed about on par for a Honda Fit or Chevy Sonic type vehicle, and significantly worse than something like a 2017 CRV (my daily driver). It felt like a sub $20k car with electric guts and some (admittedly nice) tech gadgets added on. It's also weird that there is no adaptive cruise control available, a feature that's present now on some cars that are $10k cheaper. To be fair haven't seen what the interior of a $35k Model 3 looks like either, all of the photos and units that have shipped have had the more expensive 'Premium' interior option.
  • chipperyman573 9y ago
    I have heard that most Teslas feel pretty cheap on the inside once you get over the honeymoon period.
    • vinay427 9y ago
      From my limited experience, the Model S has about the same interior quality as a $40k car (entry-level luxury or well-optioned standard). There's definitely a large price premium for choosing electric.
• joeframbach 9y ago
  > push the pedal to go.. and when you take your foot off the pedal, the car slows down Would you call it a "velocitator" rather than an "accelerator" then?
• eggnet 9y ago
  All Teslas use one pedal driving. I'm under the impression that all EVs operate that way. Edit: Yes of course, one pedal driving only applies to regenerative braking, normal brake pads are still engaged with a separate pedal. The Bolt works the same way. Imagine if simply releasing the accelerator slammed the brakes as hard as possible. That's a bad idea.
  • dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    Like the "go" pedal on a hydro-static tractor?
  • cbhl 9y ago
    The Nissan Leaf is notable for not using one pedal driving -- it is tuned to use two-pedal driving to feel like a gasoline-powered car.
    • Shivetya 9y ago
      not the new one. the new Leaf (never used/tried old one) has one pedal features with a .2g decel the GM cars can work both ways, the L on the automatic puts in one pedal or as close to it as GM will allow. Using D is like any gas car and much simpler to stretch mileage for many in
    • madengr 9y ago
      I have a 2015 leaf. Put in ECO mode, then switch to B (braking) instead of D (drive). Plenty of regen for 1 pedal driving. Also, tapping the brake turns on the regen in normal D mode, without moving the brake calipers. Supposedly, there is a recall mandated by NTSB that will mess up this 1 pedal driving. The NTSB does not like it because the brake lights do not turn on. I'm not having that done. What I don't like is the "creep" that they put in to emulate an automatic (torque converter).
      • LeifCarrotson 9y ago
        > The NTSB does not like it because the brake lights do not turn on. I'm not having that done. The NTSB must be ignoring the millions of manual-transmission vehicles which can be slowed down through engine braking without their brake lights turning on.
• Spooky23 9y ago
  A coworker has one. It’s a really nice car. The aesthetic is like the child of Subaru Forester and a Prius. Not great, not bad. It makes me worry about Tesla. Once GM, Ford and Toyota start churning these things out, how does Tesla support that valuation?
  • Robotbeat 9y ago
    Who is turning out long-range electric semis? Certainly not GM, Ford, and Toyota. They're still laughing. Anyway, Tesla isn't about dominating the /entire/ electric car market. They're a premium brand like Apple. They're not trying to make econobox cars. The Model 3 is probably close to the cheapest car they'll make. And yeah, you can make really, really cheap electric cars. Just as cheap as conventional cars (and as we make advances in battery economics, nearly the same range... though the longer range ones will always have a slight mark-up). But GM is not selling many Bolts and not planning to. It works as a halo car for them, and by only producing a few tens of thousands of EVs per year, GM can stretch out their EV credits for many years longer than Tesla. (The Bolt MSRPs for greater than the Model 3.) The Bolt is also more vulnerable to a cut in the EV tax credit. (Tesla knew the credit would go away for them soon anyway.) The Bolt also doesn't have access to the speedy and extensive Tesla supercharger network. This, besides the brand value, is one of Tesla's premier advantages over everyone else. But I don't think it's necessary for everyone else to fail at electric cars in order for Tesla to succeed.
    • Spooky23 9y ago
      I don’t think Tesla will fail. I don’t think they can justify their premium valuation. They don’t have Apple margins.
    • fma 9y ago
      Source on your claim GM doesn't plan on selling many GM Bolts? GM has announced many more electric vehicles. Source on GM not selling many Bolts? Define "not many"... Definitely more Bolts are on the road than Tesla Model 3.
• CalChris 9y ago
  > one pedal driving The Leaf has that with B-mode although I think this area is ripe for improvement. In B-mode or one pedal driving, when you take the foot off the pedal, rather than slowing down with aerodynamic drag, regen is engaged and those electrons are pumped back into the battery. On the Leaf and just about any EV or hybrid, when you brake, regenerative braking is used down to about 5 mph. Brakes last forever. One pedal driving takes a little getting used to. Not a lot, but a little.
  • jessriedel 9y ago
    Can you explain this to me? Do you ever hit the brake pedal outside emergency situations? What is the rate of braking when you take take your foot off the pedal? Does it take into account the car in front of you? Presumably if I want to brake more slowly I need to keep my foot slightly on the gas. Naively, the system seems wasteful. Regenerative breaking tops out at 80% efficiency I think, so I'd guess that you waste a lot if you remove the natural coasting null point of a two-pedal system and induce drivers to alternate between acceleration and deceleration. Maybe the idea is that if you encourage the driver to brake quickly using the regenerative system you recover more energy than if you coast slowly and bleed it into air resistance.
    • CalChris 9y ago
      > Do you ever hit the brake pedal outside emergency situations? Yes. BTW, you mostly use B-mode on the highway. You don't get any advantage in stop and go traffic. > What is the rate of braking when you take take your foot off the pedal? It is greater than aerodynamic friction. What I like is that in emergency situations where you do brake, it brakes faster since in the interval between your foot on the accelerator and your foot hitting the brake, it's already braking. > Does it take into account the car in front of you? There may be cars that do this (Tesla?) but not the Leaf and probably not the Bolt.
      • LeifCarrotson 9y ago
        > It is greater than aerodynamic friction. Is it comparable to engine braking in a manual transmission vehicle in at cruising RPMs?
• jijojv 9y ago
  no adaptive cruise control makes it totally useless. PS: Leaf 2018 will have most Tesla 3 like auto-pilot features. Tesla has self driving vaporware they'll gladly sell you today.
• thsowers 9y ago
  > looks pretty slick Just a subjective opinion, but I find the look of the Bolt unimpressive. Seems way too busy. I much prefer the clean aesthetics of the Model 3
• ilyagr 9y ago
  I've driven both the Bolt and the Volt on electric power. The Volt is far more pleasant to drive, the Bolt's turning and acceleration feel weird. I also think the volt looks better (though not good). Other than that, Bolt seems great. Hopefully, GM will fix it on the next version.
• gambiting 9y ago
  And it's not available outside of US, which seems to be a huge mistake. At the moment in UK if you want an electric car with decent range the only option is a Nissan Leaf.
• JBlue42 9y ago
  Have you actually used the top-down to parallel park? I don't own a car with one of those rear-view cameras but am always fascinated to watch it. I worry I would trust it too much instead of what I'm used to.
• shpx 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15528659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15528659 216 comments
• joeschmoecad 9y ago
  Slick? I don't think I've heard anyone say they want a Bolt.
  • scotth 9y ago
    If I wanted a car, I'd want a Bolt.