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While this is less secure than before, I’m not sure if I agree with there premise that events such as San Bernardino perpetuated this change. This would not hav

While this is less secure than before, I’m not sure if I agree with there premise that events such as San Bernardino perpetuated this change. This would not have helped the FBI decrypt that iPhone if it had been running iOS 11, since they were not able to effectively guess that phones 4 digit passcode, let alone a 6 digit or alphanumeric passcode. Their entire claim of a horror story relies on having physical access and the passcode, which would be game over on basically any device anyway. It does point out a problem with most sms and app based 2fa systems in that all accounts that are protected as such essentially rely on your devices passcode to keep those accounts safe.

penagwin 9y ago
I'm still on iOS 10. If you get my PIN code (say you're a friend, you find it somehow, repair shop - work at one and need the PIN, etc.) then you can't do a whole lot. You still need my password or thumbprint to buy apps or change passwords. In iOS 11 it changes, now you can for example access all passwords in the keystore. So you know my 4 digit pin for my phone, not to mention my Google password, Apple iCloud password, etc. Those should not be accessible with just the access code.
- Razengan 9y ago
  iOS has had 6+ digit codes for a while. You shouldn’t be using just 4. The way I go is have a long 10-14 digit code, and Face ID/Touch ID saves me the trouble of having to key it in all the time.
  - mikeokner 9y ago
    You can still set an arbitrary-length passcode. I think they phased out 4 as too weak, so now 6 is the default, but you can go longer and it'll just show you a text box instead of 6 placeholders.
  - eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
    You can enable the setting in 'Settings > Face ID & Passcode' to "Erase phone after 10 failed passcode attempts."
  - jackjeff 9y ago
    I have always used an alphanumeric password instead of a PIN. Since Touch ID my password is really long and complicated. I can’t remember it. I have a matrix of hex numbers in the phone case to be used as memento to help recreate the password in case of reboot. Actually two. So I can throw one away and escape RIPA key disclosure law. The back of the matrix explains you need two, and if one is missing then there is no way to retrieve the password.
- lorenzhs 9y ago
  If I have your PIN code, I can upgrade your device to iOS 11 and you haven't gained anything
  - bryanbuckley 9y ago
    You don't need the password for an OS upgrade?!
    - lorenzhs 9y ago
      You need the device password (aka PIN code), not the iCloud password
      - eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
        Which makes sense, because you can still run an iPhone without ever logging in to iCloud. It's extremely limiting, but it does work.
  - tqkxzugoaupvwqr 9y ago
    Maybe I misremember, but after an iOS upgrade you have to sign into your Apple account again (at least I got asked every time). So knowing the passcode and upgrading from iOS 10 to 11 could mean the owner’s Apple account cannot be hijacked because the owner is not signed into the Apple account.
    - lorenzhs 9y ago
      From the article: "What if the iPhone in question runs an earlier version of iOS that does not allow removing backup passwords? I say you’re lucky because you can simply update that device to iOS 11 and then reset that password. We tried this strategy multiple times, and not once did we have an issue."
      - yborg 9y ago
        Wait what? So if I have a device PIN I can reset an iCloud password from an iOS device without EVER entering the iCloud password?
- anthmcc 9y ago
  wonder if it's cause they made the lousy choice to get rid of fingerprint on the X. My apple products are great, but I'm concerned that I'm not going to be able to replace them with the same quality.
- victor106 9y ago
  “In iOS 11 it changes, now you can for example access all passwords in the keystore” You can do that in iOS 10 as well. Apple made your passcode is equivalent to your root password on a Mac. I think they were trying to make it easy for less tech savvy users to use the device. I agree that there has to some mechanism to change what kind of password you want to apply to access certain functionality on your phone
  - nindalf 9y ago
    > make it easy for less tech savvy users Does a prompt for TouchID/FaceID affect usability?
zkms 9y ago
> Their entire claim of a horror story relies on having physical access and the passcode, which would be game over on basically any device anyway. If i understand correctly, prior to 11, you needed to know the iCloud password to, say, remove Activation Lock. Now, you don't need iCloud password, just device password (and physical access of course). It's a significant drop in security, and not just in a theoretical sense ,if only because people enter their device passcodes a lot more than they do their icloud passwords (which makes them tend to be easier to guess and easier to capture).
- greggman 9y ago
  and yet Apple asks for your passcode and puts it on their repair database if you take it in. no idea how many of your other accounts their repair people use your phone to compromise. I'm guessing it's low but it's not impossible to believe some repair technician with your phone's passcode might use your phone to access other accounts
  - krrrh 9y ago
    This one always irks me. If I know that my phone needs a repair, I’ll always back it up and do a fresh install before bringing it in. It’s a huge hassle and I get the impression that not many people even think about it.
    - simion314 9y ago
      Can you do that if the phone won't start because some defect? Is the same with a laptop, if it won't start you can erase the drive without opening it before sending it for repair.
      - madeofpalk 9y ago
        If the phone won't start because of a defect, they won't need your PIN because your phone won't start to enter it in.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
simion314 9y ago
I think the difference is now like you would have used same PIN code to everything, password manager, emails, online accounts, where before you could unlock less things with the PIN now you unlock everything.
nickflood 9y ago
> Their entire claim of a horror story relies on having physical access and the passcode, which would be game over on basically any device anyway The issue here is actually deeper. With the physical access to your device, they get access and ownership of your other devices, too. Say, you lose your iPhone on a trip and an attacker recovers your passcode for that phone (say you're not a HN'er, but an average joe who uses a 0000 passcode for convenience). Now the attacker can overtake your apple ID, go into the Find My iDevice app and _lock_ your iPad and your MacBook that are still in your possession. And now you've got two more bricks on your hand, which presumably display a Bitcoin address with a ransom.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  A ransomware scheme that requires stealing physical devices seems hard to scale I suspect I would be more worried about one device being hacked and someone using access to that device to attack other devices.

penagwin 9y ago

I'm still on iOS 10. If you get my PIN code (say you're a friend, you find it somehow, repair shop - work at one and need the PIN, etc.) then you can't do a whole lot. You still need my password or thumbprint to buy apps or change passwords. In iOS 11 it changes, now you can for example access all passwords in the keystore. So you know my 4 digit pin for my phone, not to mention my Google password, Apple iCloud password, etc. Those should not be accessible with just the access code.

Razengan 9y ago
iOS has had 6+ digit codes for a while. You shouldn’t be using just 4. The way I go is have a long 10-14 digit code, and Face ID/Touch ID saves me the trouble of having to key it in all the time.
- mikeokner 9y ago
  You can still set an arbitrary-length passcode. I think they phased out 4 as too weak, so now 6 is the default, but you can go longer and it'll just show you a text box instead of 6 placeholders.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
  You can enable the setting in 'Settings > Face ID & Passcode' to "Erase phone after 10 failed passcode attempts."
- jackjeff 9y ago
  I have always used an alphanumeric password instead of a PIN. Since Touch ID my password is really long and complicated. I can’t remember it. I have a matrix of hex numbers in the phone case to be used as memento to help recreate the password in case of reboot. Actually two. So I can throw one away and escape RIPA key disclosure law. The back of the matrix explains you need two, and if one is missing then there is no way to retrieve the password.
lorenzhs 9y ago
If I have your PIN code, I can upgrade your device to iOS 11 and you haven't gained anything
- bryanbuckley 9y ago
  You don't need the password for an OS upgrade?!
  - lorenzhs 9y ago
    You need the device password (aka PIN code), not the iCloud password
    - eeeeeeeeeeeee 9y ago
      Which makes sense, because you can still run an iPhone without ever logging in to iCloud. It's extremely limiting, but it does work.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 9y ago
  Maybe I misremember, but after an iOS upgrade you have to sign into your Apple account again (at least I got asked every time). So knowing the passcode and upgrading from iOS 10 to 11 could mean the owner’s Apple account cannot be hijacked because the owner is not signed into the Apple account.
  - lorenzhs 9y ago
    From the article: "What if the iPhone in question runs an earlier version of iOS that does not allow removing backup passwords? I say you’re lucky because you can simply update that device to iOS 11 and then reset that password. We tried this strategy multiple times, and not once did we have an issue."
    - yborg 9y ago
      Wait what? So if I have a device PIN I can reset an iCloud password from an iOS device without EVER entering the iCloud password?
anthmcc 9y ago
wonder if it's cause they made the lousy choice to get rid of fingerprint on the X. My apple products are great, but I'm concerned that I'm not going to be able to replace them with the same quality.
victor106 9y ago
“In iOS 11 it changes, now you can for example access all passwords in the keystore” You can do that in iOS 10 as well. Apple made your passcode is equivalent to your root password on a Mac. I think they were trying to make it easy for less tech savvy users to use the device. I agree that there has to some mechanism to change what kind of password you want to apply to access certain functionality on your phone
- nindalf 9y ago
  > make it easy for less tech savvy users Does a prompt for TouchID/FaceID affect usability?

zkms 9y ago

> Their entire claim of a horror story relies on having physical access and the passcode, which would be game over on basically any device anyway. If i understand correctly, prior to 11, you needed to know the iCloud password to, say, remove Activation Lock. Now, you don't need iCloud password, just device password (and physical access of course). It's a significant drop in security, and not just in a theoretical sense ,if only because people enter their device passcodes a lot more than they do their icloud passwords (which makes them tend to be easier to guess and easier to capture).

greggman 9y ago
and yet Apple asks for your passcode and puts it on their repair database if you take it in. no idea how many of your other accounts their repair people use your phone to compromise. I'm guessing it's low but it's not impossible to believe some repair technician with your phone's passcode might use your phone to access other accounts
- krrrh 9y ago
  This one always irks me. If I know that my phone needs a repair, I’ll always back it up and do a fresh install before bringing it in. It’s a huge hassle and I get the impression that not many people even think about it.
  - simion314 9y ago
    Can you do that if the phone won't start because some defect? Is the same with a laptop, if it won't start you can erase the drive without opening it before sending it for repair.
    - madeofpalk 9y ago
      If the phone won't start because of a defect, they won't need your PIN because your phone won't start to enter it in.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago

simion314 9y ago

I think the difference is now like you would have used same PIN code to everything, password manager, emails, online accounts, where before you could unlock less things with the PIN now you unlock everything.

nickflood 9y ago

> Their entire claim of a horror story relies on having physical access and the passcode, which would be game over on basically any device anyway The issue here is actually deeper. With the physical access to your device, they get access and ownership of your other devices, too. Say, you lose your iPhone on a trip and an attacker recovers your passcode for that phone (say you're not a HN'er, but an average joe who uses a 0000 passcode for convenience). Now the attacker can overtake your apple ID, go into the Find My iDevice app and _lock_ your iPad and your MacBook that are still in your possession. And now you've got two more bricks on your hand, which presumably display a Bitcoin address with a ransom.

michaelmrose 9y ago
A ransomware scheme that requires stealing physical devices seems hard to scale I suspect I would be more worried about one device being hacked and someone using access to that device to attack other devices.