6 ms·

Huh? Our verbs have no gender? Care to explain? What German does though, is a declination of verbs through all cases and times, often irregular, accompanied by

by bipson 9y ago

Huh? Our verbs have no gender? Care to explain? What German does though, is a declination of verbs through all cases and times, often irregular, accompanied by gendering pronouns which seems to be the hardest part of German for learner's with native tongue that hasn't these features. The thing is, some think they got it after a few years, but we just let it slip, because it is not required, just feels wrong. We can tell, you've not grown up here.

Tehnix 9y ago
They probably meant nouns with der/die/das. Probably the thing I hate most in any language, it just seems so incredibly stupid for no benefit (I obviously was not a fan of learning German in primary school). Same with french, but they take it a bit further.
- bipson 9y ago
  FYI that's the article, in particular "der/die/das" are the definite articles. "Incredibly stupid" sounds a little derogatory. They are not particularly necessary for understanding the language, the correct gender/article for certain nouns are even subject to heated debate between regional dialects, and I agree, if you are coming from a language without these rules it might be hard to grasp/integrate. Nevertheless, I would not go as far as to say they are incredibly stupid. Consider, English also has he/she, him/her, his/hers. You just got rid off the "the"s, AFAIK (or German is the only Germanic language that adopted it from Latin, but I am no linguist). But gender is the easier part, the cases make it difficult: Similar to the English "he/him", we have declination of articles: "einen/einem/eines". This seems terrible for English natives. Together with constructs of "den einen/dem einen/von einem/vom einen/zu einem/auf einen/auf einem", so you need to memorize ways of saying things and at the same time apply the case accordingly. It can make a huge difference in what you are trying to convey. "Von einem ..." is "... of one" (indefinite article), where "Vom einen ..." (Von dem einen) is "... of the one" (dem is the article, einen is actually a counting pronoun, not sure this is the right name).
  - Tehnix 9y ago
    >"Incredibly stupid" sounds a little derogatory Yeah, sorry about that, I just get a bit frustrated when I encounter languages with them, because they, for me, feel so unnecessary. I don't feel that comparison is fair, and I consider the English a lot more intuitive, since it's an indication of the gender of a person, which has a gender, and not of an object, which doesn't. They are more similar to "er"/"es" or "seiner"/"ihrer" in my view. My main gripe is that the gender is a needless extra burden when learning the language, and it doesn't even make sense some times (my go to example is "das Mädchen"). Luckily German is not as bad as french in that part, which even changes words themselves based on what gender you are talking to!
    - steiner_j 9y ago
      Actually "das Mädchen" makes perfect sense. The diminutive ("-chen") requires the neuter form. This is remarkably regular for a language full of exceptions: Der Brief, Das Briefchen. Die Flasche, Das Fläschchen etc.
- laurieg 9y ago
  A Japanese person might say "Why bother writing 'dog' and 'dogs'? If you have more than one why not just write '2 dog'?" Careful throwing those stones!
  - Tehnix 9y ago
    Just because there are imperfections in english, doesn't mean I can't complain about imperfections in other languages... Besides that, there's a huge difference, since plurals have clear cut rules, while object genders are only by memory with qualified guessing. That said I would welcome "2 dog", although Japanese has other problems with counters (e.g. "yonko", "yottsu", "yonki" etc), so not a very compelling argument to make...
    - TulliusCicero 9y ago
      Plurals aren't so clear cut. English isn't as bad as German for this, but there's still a bunch of different ways to write plural forms: s, es, ies, i, en, and of course some nouns don't have a plural.
- retromario 9y ago
  My big pet peeve with the German language is that there are three freaking genders (masculine, feminine, neutral). Which means you only have 1/3 chance of getting it correct when guessing. My second pet peeve is the various different (and unrelated) meaning of the word 'ihr', which can mean in turn you (plural pronoun), her (pronoun), her (possessive determiner, as in "her book") and their (determiner). Why in the world would you reuse the same word for so many different meanings? My favorite thing about German is that things are pronounced as they are spelled and vice-versa.
mysterypie 9y ago
> We can tell, you've not grown up here. Likewise I can tell that English is not your mother tongue. I understood everything you wrote (you're obviously fluent), but tiny little things give away that English isn't your native language: > learner's with native tongue that hasn't these features I would have written: learners whose native tongue doesn't have these features > but we just let it slip but we just let it slide > you've not grown up here you didn't grow up here I sincerely hope you don't take my comment the wrong way. It was too interesting to pass up an example of the very thing you mentioned: that you can tell even when the person is fluent (even if you don't hear an accent). Related observation: You know how Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber[1], was caught? He used the expression "You can't eat your cake and have it, too."[2] But nearly everyone knows the expression as "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." Ted Kaczynski's brother recognized Ted's highly unusual usage from the anonymous manifesto published by the Unabomber, and this is what convinced him that he was the Unabomber. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski [2] http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002762.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002762.h...
- redmorphium 9y ago
  Fascinating thing about the Unabomber. Reminds me of when an Indian friend in high school played a prank on another friend by impersonating me through instant messages (we were sharing a hotel). My friend was able to figure out that it wasn't me because my Indian friend used the phrase "today morning" instead of "this morning."
  - thewhitetulip 9y ago
    We all have patterns while texting. I remember when I was in college, I had made a new friend, she was the 'monitor' of the class, yes, we had monitors in college as well. Back then, we didn't have whatsapp, so we were texting. She never responded to texts during lecture before that day, so I was shocked. Then, one message later, I realized that it was someone else using her phone and fifteen minutes later, I said, "If you are done, please give her phone back to XYZ"
  - 9y ago
thewhitetulip 9y ago
I am bad with theory, so please bear with me. What I meant was das Ma:dchen die fru:shtuck It is not just remember the noun (apologies) but also the gender associated with the noun. To exacerbate the matter, there are millions of rules and then there are thousands of exceptions to those rules. But then again, the language is intuitive :) I just happened to love Japanese because I want to go to Japan soon and that's why I gave up German, but I will learn it in the next five years
- bipson 9y ago
  Oh, yeah, the nouns are gendered - everything is gendered! And it must be memorized, there is no rule. Same is true for all Romance languages (Portuguese, Spanish, French, etc.) AFAIK. Btw. it is "das Frühstück" as well. But you get laughed at when saying "das Cola" in Germany, but yelled at being a stupid German when saying "die Cola" in Vienna. Which makes the whole thing great, because it obviously annoys us a lot, both is correct though, and it totally doesn't make a difference what the gender of the thing is :) We have lot's of words where the "Duden", the official dictionary has an "Austrian also: ..." alternative gender. And then there are colloquial habits that are utterly out of spec which make me furious to be honest. Who the hell thinks "das Teller" sounds right?!
  - thewhitetulip 9y ago
    hehehe. I learnt German for nearly one year and though the theory was huge, I didn't learn it well. I'll ping you up when I resume my studies. My dream holiday destination is Templehoff airport. (which I assume has been flattened to build a parking lot)
    - wibr 9y ago
      Not a parking lot, but a park: https://www.visitberlin.de/en/tempelhofer-feld-tempelhof-field https://www.visitberlin.de/en/tempelhofer-feld-tempelhof-fie...
      - thewhitetulip 9y ago

by bipson 9y ago

Tehnix 9y ago

They probably meant nouns with der/die/das. Probably the thing I hate most in any language, it just seems so incredibly stupid for no benefit (I obviously was not a fan of learning German in primary school). Same with french, but they take it a bit further.

bipson 9y ago
FYI that's the article, in particular "der/die/das" are the definite articles. "Incredibly stupid" sounds a little derogatory. They are not particularly necessary for understanding the language, the correct gender/article for certain nouns are even subject to heated debate between regional dialects, and I agree, if you are coming from a language without these rules it might be hard to grasp/integrate. Nevertheless, I would not go as far as to say they are incredibly stupid. Consider, English also has he/she, him/her, his/hers. You just got rid off the "the"s, AFAIK (or German is the only Germanic language that adopted it from Latin, but I am no linguist). But gender is the easier part, the cases make it difficult: Similar to the English "he/him", we have declination of articles: "einen/einem/eines". This seems terrible for English natives. Together with constructs of "den einen/dem einen/von einem/vom einen/zu einem/auf einen/auf einem", so you need to memorize ways of saying things and at the same time apply the case accordingly. It can make a huge difference in what you are trying to convey. "Von einem ..." is "... of one" (indefinite article), where "Vom einen ..." (Von dem einen) is "... of the one" (dem is the article, einen is actually a counting pronoun, not sure this is the right name).
- Tehnix 9y ago
  >"Incredibly stupid" sounds a little derogatory Yeah, sorry about that, I just get a bit frustrated when I encounter languages with them, because they, for me, feel so unnecessary. I don't feel that comparison is fair, and I consider the English a lot more intuitive, since it's an indication of the gender of a person, which has a gender, and not of an object, which doesn't. They are more similar to "er"/"es" or "seiner"/"ihrer" in my view. My main gripe is that the gender is a needless extra burden when learning the language, and it doesn't even make sense some times (my go to example is "das Mädchen"). Luckily German is not as bad as french in that part, which even changes words themselves based on what gender you are talking to!
  - steiner_j 9y ago
    Actually "das Mädchen" makes perfect sense. The diminutive ("-chen") requires the neuter form. This is remarkably regular for a language full of exceptions: Der Brief, Das Briefchen. Die Flasche, Das Fläschchen etc.
laurieg 9y ago
A Japanese person might say "Why bother writing 'dog' and 'dogs'? If you have more than one why not just write '2 dog'?" Careful throwing those stones!
- Tehnix 9y ago
  Just because there are imperfections in english, doesn't mean I can't complain about imperfections in other languages... Besides that, there's a huge difference, since plurals have clear cut rules, while object genders are only by memory with qualified guessing. That said I would welcome "2 dog", although Japanese has other problems with counters (e.g. "yonko", "yottsu", "yonki" etc), so not a very compelling argument to make...
  - TulliusCicero 9y ago
    Plurals aren't so clear cut. English isn't as bad as German for this, but there's still a bunch of different ways to write plural forms: s, es, ies, i, en, and of course some nouns don't have a plural.
retromario 9y ago
My big pet peeve with the German language is that there are three freaking genders (masculine, feminine, neutral). Which means you only have 1/3 chance of getting it correct when guessing. My second pet peeve is the various different (and unrelated) meaning of the word 'ihr', which can mean in turn you (plural pronoun), her (pronoun), her (possessive determiner, as in "her book") and their (determiner). Why in the world would you reuse the same word for so many different meanings? My favorite thing about German is that things are pronounced as they are spelled and vice-versa.

mysterypie 9y ago

> We can tell, you've not grown up here. Likewise I can tell that English is not your mother tongue. I understood everything you wrote (you're obviously fluent), but tiny little things give away that English isn't your native language: > learner's with native tongue that hasn't these features I would have written: learners whose native tongue doesn't have these features > but we just let it slip but we just let it slide > you've not grown up here you didn't grow up here I sincerely hope you don't take my comment the wrong way. It was too interesting to pass up an example of the very thing you mentioned: that you can tell even when the person is fluent (even if you don't hear an accent). Related observation: You know how Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber[1], was caught? He used the expression "You can't eat your cake and have it, too."[2] But nearly everyone knows the expression as "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." Ted Kaczynski's brother recognized Ted's highly unusual usage from the anonymous manifesto published by the Unabomber, and this is what convinced him that he was the Unabomber. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski [2] http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002762.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002762.h...

redmorphium 9y ago
Fascinating thing about the Unabomber. Reminds me of when an Indian friend in high school played a prank on another friend by impersonating me through instant messages (we were sharing a hotel). My friend was able to figure out that it wasn't me because my Indian friend used the phrase "today morning" instead of "this morning."
- thewhitetulip 9y ago
  We all have patterns while texting. I remember when I was in college, I had made a new friend, she was the 'monitor' of the class, yes, we had monitors in college as well. Back then, we didn't have whatsapp, so we were texting. She never responded to texts during lecture before that day, so I was shocked. Then, one message later, I realized that it was someone else using her phone and fifteen minutes later, I said, "If you are done, please give her phone back to XYZ"
- 9y ago

thewhitetulip 9y ago

I am bad with theory, so please bear with me. What I meant was das Ma:dchen die fru:shtuck It is not just remember the noun (apologies) but also the gender associated with the noun. To exacerbate the matter, there are millions of rules and then there are thousands of exceptions to those rules. But then again, the language is intuitive :) I just happened to love Japanese because I want to go to Japan soon and that's why I gave up German, but I will learn it in the next five years

bipson 9y ago
Oh, yeah, the nouns are gendered - everything is gendered! And it must be memorized, there is no rule. Same is true for all Romance languages (Portuguese, Spanish, French, etc.) AFAIK. Btw. it is "das Frühstück" as well. But you get laughed at when saying "das Cola" in Germany, but yelled at being a stupid German when saying "die Cola" in Vienna. Which makes the whole thing great, because it obviously annoys us a lot, both is correct though, and it totally doesn't make a difference what the gender of the thing is :) We have lot's of words where the "Duden", the official dictionary has an "Austrian also: ..." alternative gender. And then there are colloquial habits that are utterly out of spec which make me furious to be honest. Who the hell thinks "das Teller" sounds right?!
- thewhitetulip 9y ago
  hehehe. I learnt German for nearly one year and though the theory was huge, I didn't learn it well. I'll ping you up when I resume my studies. My dream holiday destination is Templehoff airport. (which I assume has been flattened to build a parking lot)
  - wibr 9y ago
    Not a parking lot, but a park: https://www.visitberlin.de/en/tempelhofer-feld-tempelhof-field https://www.visitberlin.de/en/tempelhofer-feld-tempelhof-fie...
    - thewhitetulip 9y ago