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A Generation in Japan Is Facing a Lonely Death
- nickthemagicman 9y agoCapitalism is brutal. People spend time with people who provide the most value to their lives. And some people don't provide much value and they die alone.
- golergka 9y ago> People spend time with people who provide the most value to their lives. Wow, people are brutal when they are given free will! Looks like this "free will" is a brutal, evil thing.
- pjc50 9y agoYes, that's one of the central moral questions which Christian and other thinkers have wrestled with over the centuries.
- golergka 9y agoThankfully, now we can blame all those evils on "capitalism" instead.
- jessaustin 9y agoWe blame it for the weather; why not everything else as well?
- nickthemagicman 9y agoWe're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise. A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc.
- golergka 9y ago> true capitalistic value system Only exists for capitalistic entities, like companies. There's no "capitalistic value system" for a human - capitalist society gives you freedom to decide what your value system is on your own.
- krapp 9y agoThat's not capitalism unless the people making emotional investments are doing so strictly for monetary gain, which doesn't appear to be supported by the article.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoWe're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise. A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc. reply. The point of the article is that no one is making emotional investments in these people.
- krapp 9y agoBut we don't live in a "true" capitalistic value system, and most people don't approach their relationships in the game-theoretic way you're describing. So while you're correct about the point of the article, I think you're overstating the influence of capitalist ideology in the general case of human relationships. Also, pasting the same comment in the thread several times makes it seem as if you don't actually care to respond to what other posters are saying, you just want to spam your thoughts.
- bovermyer 9y agoYou read that entire article and this is what you took away? The situation is far more complex than that. Japan is facing a very real crisis, and the causes are not limited to its adoption of capitalism following WWII.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoWe're encouraged in capitalism to spend our limited time developing networks and connections with people who can benefit us financially or career wise. A true capitalistic value system considers it a waste of time to pursue relationships with simply interesting people with mostly non-capitalizable quality's like good sense of humor, compassion, storytelling...etc. reply. You get what you value.
- bovermyer 9y agoAnd keeping in mind that both the USA and Japan have hybrid economic systems rather than pure capitalism implementations, you must be talking about an abstract concept rather than a real-world system. Regardless, the article was not about the effects of capitalism, but rather about desocialization and abandonment of the elderly population in one class of Japan. This is not caused by capitalism alone, though capitalistic systems played a part.
- gspetr 9y agoWhat's the alternative?[0] Remember that burning desire to spend time with random elderly people when you were 14? Yeah, neither do I. [0]I actually know of one, since I'm Russian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur_and_His_Squad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur_and_His_Squad The problem I see with that is it's artificial. Again, remember that burning desire to spend time with random elderly people when you were 14? People did it to essentially earn social points and feel good about themselves, when you're a child - to get adults to praise you in exchange for some liberties, like breaking a curfew a bit. My point is, I don't think Capitalism is the problem here. I don't have that much trouble believing boy scouts could have been the American "Timur and his squad" in 1940.
- InfiniteBeing 9y agoIs this really unique to capitalism?
- matz1 9y agoIt's been that way since forever, regardless capitalism or not.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoI can't believe that. Elders and their wisdom used to be highly valued in Japan pre-capitalism.
- chesimov 9y agoHave you ever spoken to somebody who actually lived under a different system? You will not like what they tell you.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoI love capitalism. Unregulated capitalism like in America is a dystopic nightmare for many people.
- chesimov 9y agoMaybe the Northern European approaches are a little kinder to the human condition?
- krapp 9y agoAmerican capitalism is regulated. Not as regulated as other capitalist systems, but calling it "unregulated" is simply incorrect. And capitalism in Japan isn't the same flavor of capitalism in the US, and wouldn't necessarily have the same societal weight in context.
- dominotw 9y agoI thinks its do or die time for me to have kids. postponed it too long. I don't want to die alone, old age is loooong. Reading this article and watching this random video put me in high key stress mode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Zxvr2NjDA&feature=youtu.be&t=1203 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Zxvr2NjDA&feature=youtu.be...
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoLots of ways to connect with young people. Youth organizations can get you connected, without the household commitment (they all go home at the end of the game). Scouts, church groups, Big Brother/Sister, you name it. So don't have to go into this whole hog; don't need anybody else involved to make it work; and no unsurmountable reason to delay?
- fourstar 9y agoIt's the literal purpose of our existence. Why would you discourage that?
- JoeAltmaier 9y agoBecause finding the 'right person' is seen as a precondition to starting a family. Which is an artificial obstacle, given what I wrote above. If the goal is to connect with a younger generation in a significant way, so as to know people when old.
- icebraining 9y agoThat's like, your opinion, man. Not everyone agrees that our existence even has a purpose.
- DeusExMachina 9y agoHis opinion, plus 4 billion years of evolution.
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- fallingfrog 9y agoI think I tend towards the Aubrey de Grey point of view on this- it's not necessarily anything anyone is doing wrong here, it's more that these folks are living in dying bodies that can't do what they want them to do. If they were suddenly young again- they could go out, make new connections, start over. With that said, I do see the point that this is a western/capitalist phenomenon in the sense that capitalism encourages business relationships at the expense of personal ones. And it's the personal ones that are more lasting and meaningful and which you need once you reach retirement age.
- mschaef 9y ago> these folks are living in dying bodies If you're not, please let us know your secret.
- vixen99 9y agoYes. Break the 'them & us' concept and solutions will present themselves.
- icc97 9y agoI think it might come back to haunt the butterfly generation, where it's fun to fly off round the world. But then you rarely create connections that are deep enough to stay with you til your death bed.
- skadamou 9y agoWhat exactly is the butterfly generation? I have never heard this term before. Are you referring to the book "The Butterfly Generation" by Palash Krishna Mehrotra and if so does this term have a distinctly Indian meaning or does it apply to people from other countries as well? Thanks for satisfying my curiosity! https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13432312-the-butterfly-generation https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13432312-the-butterfly-g...
- icc97 9y ago
- Frogolocalypse 9y agoWhat a fascinating story.
- aviso5 9y agoToo much work is what kills people
- yodsanklai 9y agoI didn't manage to finish this article. What is the point exactly? that it sucks to live very old and die? What is specific to Japan? Is it worse in Japan than let say in Germany, China or the US. What could we do to make this better?
- ghostcluster 9y agoI found it really well written. To answer your question though, the birth rate in Germany is even lower than Japan's, though I think Japan has been low longer.
- yodsanklai 9y agoTrue, but I'm not sure birthrate is the only or main culprit here. I assume more and more people live far from their parents. Besides, very old people have lost their partner, siblings, and possibly some of their children (like the first person depicted in the article).
- andygcook 9y agoElder loneliness is something I think about a lot. My grandparents on my father’s side are both 94. They’re also both hard of hearing. My grandpa had scarlett fever as a child and went almost deaf. He struggled through school and eventually got hearing aids in his 20’s. A huge improvement for him and every time he recounts that story he revels at the wonders of technology. I like to think my love of tech just runs in my blood. My grandma, on the other hand, has just lost her hearing in her older age. And she refuses to get hearing aids because she associates them with Grandpa not listening to her. He sometimes turns them off to zone her out :D I live in Boston and they live about an hour away towards Cape Code. I make an effort to visit about once every two months, but there’s so much stuff they miss from my life and don’t see because their not on social media. They don’t know how to use a computer or iPad. We’ve tried with no luck. One time I sent them photos in the mail of my new apartment, the first one I moved into with my then girlfriend (and now fiancé) about 5 years ago. I took the photos on my phone, printed them at CVS, wrote a caption on each one and mailed them off to my grandparents. They loved it and talked about it for months. I think I was even their favorite grandkid for a few months (I have three siblings and we compete with each other). Fast forward 5 years later to my grandpa’s 94th birthday and I didn’t know what to get him. They’re house is full of stuff and they don’t need anything. I had been thinking about the photos I sent them for a few years and how if I made that easier, I’d probably do it more. Finally, I decided to make it into a script for our family to text photos to a unique number and once a month they get printed and shipped to Grandma & Grandpa. Now they’re regularly getting photos from everyone and they love it. We even compete to see who gets a photo on the fridge each month. I told a few friends about the hack and they wanted it, so my older brother and I built it out into a full fledged product and recently launched NanaGram: https://NanaGram.co https://NanaGram.co Check it out if you have Grandparents and want to make their days a bit happier by feeling more connected to you. Would also love to hear HN’s thoughts too. Thanks! Edit: spelling, grammar, and clarity. And PSA - call your grandparents!
- toomuchtodo 9y agoI just wanted to say you’re doing an awesome job by making them feel included as family, and that you’re a good person for making the effort. To those reading this, make the time and effort now. Life is a long time to have regrets about what you wish you had done. My grandmother lives in a retirement community and 9 times out of 10, families never come to visit the people she knows in her circles. The photos are perfect for non tech literate elders, and while I haven’t checked out your product while mobile, looking forward to checking it out this evening!
- icc97 9y agoSo who has made plans for once you're over say 80? There's the GYST website [0], but that doesn't handle what to do when you're still alive. I don't think you can rely on kids, they'll only be there maximum for a couple of hours per week if you're lucky. [0]: https://www.gyst.com/ https://www.gyst.com/
- Cthulhu_ 9y agoHopefully by then self-driving cars are a thing so I can just tour around the world and err. Actually nvm I don't like that, I hope I'll be able to play and enjoy video games all day then, call the young ones n00bs and troll them for not knowing what a n00b is.
- gourou 9y agoJapan's elderly population (25%) is much higher than any other OCDE country (14.5% for the US). Investment in robot assistants for the elderly hasn't been particularly fruitful, therefore Japan is slowly turning to immigration to take care of them. https://data.oecd.org/pop/elderly-population.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/pop/elderly-population.htm#indicator-c... http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bears-to-foreign-nurses/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/japan-prefers-robot-bear... https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/its-population-ages-japan-quietly-turns-immigration https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/its-population-ages-...
- Parcissons 9y agoMy aunt worked in geronto-theraphy - and always told us about the russian and polish care-takers working at the nursing homes caring for elderly SS-Soldiers in 90s and 20s. What a job, feeding the guy who might have murdered your grandparents. I hope having immigrants come to help, japan is able to cast off its racism.
- wwarner 9y agonytimes gets so much free seo from hn!
- jamix 9y agoWhat a wonderful story. Life is short, and your loved ones are what ultimately gives it a meaning.
- somberi 9y agoMy mother-in-law lives in an active community where old people live. The other day I had gone to visit her and she was playing bridge with a dozen people. I thought to myself "There is a 1000 years of history here in this table". It was a humbling thought.
- ashark 9y agoBridge is freakin' great. It's recently infected my 25-35 age range circle of friends and now we've almost all caught the bug. It's like some kind of partners chess, but meaner, in card game form. A little like spades if you're familiar with that, but makes spades look like a game for babies. No requirements for multiple or specially prepared decks like some games (hand & foot, pepper) so it's convenient, too. Which is to say: see if you can join their game :-)
- lazerpants 9y agoPlus, it's Warren Buffett and Bill Gatess favorite card game (they play together).
- mercutio2 9y agoDuplicate is basically the best game ever created. Just sucks you need 8, hard to accomplish in most youthful social circles. When you’re retired, much easier to get at least two tables.
- Callmenorm 9y agoI recently read an article about India being afraid of embracing Western marriage basically for fear that it would lead to the elderly not being cared for. It's more complicated than that, but it feels like it should be a real concern as India westernizes.
- skadamou 9y agoI’ve been mulling over a similar idea in my head for a couple of weeks now and would love to get someone else’s opinion. Without placing any kind of a moral judgement on the lifestyle choices of others, sometimes I feel like a lot of the social problems the United States faces are exasperated by the small nuclear families that seem to predominate in the US. Large multigenerational families seem better equipped to weather financial insecurity and deal with members of the family that might struggle with mental health issues, both of which seem to play a pivotal role in homelessness and food insecurity. Additionally, there seems to be a general sense of anxiety for young people in the States and while I don’t have any evidence to back up this hypothesis, I think that it might be because millennials tend to be less socialized than older generations. If humans evolved to exist in tight nit tribes, it would make sense that the relative solitude of modern life would breed a sense of malaise. Obviously most of this post is conjecture but I appreciate any thoughts you might offer on the topic.
- lr4444lr 9y agoMy father died a couple of years ago. He was a proud union civil servant, and several dozen (maybe 200) people showed up to the funeral who knew him at various degrees of separation. I knew only a few of them, but it impressed upon me as someone who works more with code than directly with people that so many people so distantly removed from a person would pay such respects. Who shows up to your last rites says a lot about how you lived your life. He spent time above and beyond his work duties to give people a better life by his union activity, the legacy of which lasts today. I have a small-ish family (we're on good terms) and have had some modest accomplishments at work, but most of my friends are from college, and live far away. Old work buddies I see only infrequently, and it'd be hard to imagine how they'd be notified in the case of my death, and I certainly don't have the time or inclination to become such a pioneer in FOSS that my passing would be momentous in the industry. It got me to thinking how we lose a lot not only when we're dedicated to work, but also only to too small a social circle to have the kind of old age and passing that we'd ideally envision for ourselves. It's spurred me to volunteer more time in my local community in various ways in the hopes that I'd become the kind of person others would find dependable, spread the good word about, and miss when I'm gone.
- mud_dauber 9y agoThat was incredibly painful to read.
- timthelion 9y agoHere in the Czech Republic there are many discussions about how there is not enough money for the elderly (almost all of whom lost what little they had during the transition away from communism due to changes in currency). Simultaneously, there is a lot of discussion about the lack of spots in pre-schools. And I also see that many elderly people are quite lonely. I think it would be a great idea to create combined elderly pre-school centers. You could attend if you were under the age of 7 or over the age of 70. Morning would be breakfast time, where the elderly and the very young would eat together. Then there would be play time, when the elderly could chat and watch as the children played. Then there could be lunch time. And after lunch, the elderly and the very young could sing songs. Then there could be some excersize time, which would mostly teach the kids to sit still and follow directions, while enticing the elderly to do some stretching. And then the kids would go home. And the elderly could perhaps sleep up-stairs. I do not think this would harm the children, and I think that many old people would be much happier in such a setting.