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That's a cool project. However, to make videos with quality content at a reasonable frequency, many of these creators depend on YouTube for income or at least

That's a cool project. However, to make videos with quality content at a reasonable frequency, many of these creators depend on YouTube for income or at least partial income. Any P2P / federated service would have to find an agreeable way to A) send ads in a safe and private way to each viewer B) stop people from manipulating the system to game ads while accurately determining if an ad was viewed.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Tools like Patreon can help fill this gap.
- nathcd 9y ago
  Also, there's no reason creators couldn't use "dumb ads" where they read ad copy during their videos, and sell the spots themselves. Seems to be the main revenue source in the podcast world. It feels weird to be an advocate for something like dumb advertising (maybe "content-targeted advertising" is a better name?), but dumb ads and Patreon really are a breath of fresh air relative to the status quo of web content.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    Yes, it's one thing for serial content like a podcast or talk show, it's another for more artistic endeavors where it would lesson the artistic credibility to have an ad ingrained into the video. It's also not a suitable format for those who create many small 1-5m videos. Additionally, it prevents you from retroactively changing what ad gets sent with the video, which can lead to conflicts arising over severed business ties, and limit your overall ability to make residual profit from older videos.
    - nathcd 9y ago
      > Yes, it's one thing for serial content like a podcast or talk show, it's another for more artistic endeavors where it would lesson the artistic credibility to have an ad ingrained into the video. > It's also not a suitable format for those who create many small 1-5m videos. I don't think having platform-handled dynamic ads (ie YouTube) differs from these dynamics in any meaningful way. The difference that matters is that with dumb ads the creator has complete control. > Additionally, it prevents you from retroactively changing what ad gets sent with the video, which can lead to conflicts arising over severed business ties, and limit your overall ability to make residual profit from older videos. This is a feature (of content-targeted advertising), not a bug. If a business model relies on tracking and targeting unknowing users who aren't aware that they can resist being tracked and targeted, maybe it was a crappy business model in the first place.
      - kakarot 9y ago
        > This is a feature (of content-targeted advertising), not a bug. If a business model relies on tracking and targeting unknowing users who aren't aware that they can resist being tracked and targeted, maybe it was a crappy business model in the first place. This is a false dichotomy. There exists a large, partly unexplored space between hard embedded pre-recorded ads and targeted advertising that makes use of tracking.
        nathcd 9y ago
        Hmmm, that's a possibility I haven't considered. I suppose because I'm having trouble imagining what that in-between space looks like. If an ad is targeted at a user, doesn't that necessarily mean they were tracked to some degree (i.e. some data is known about them, and an ad is being shown to them based on whatever that known data is)? Conversely, if nothing is known about the user (they haven't been tracked at all), how can an ad be targeted at them (besides knowing they are viewing a webpage on a certain topic, but then we're back at being content-targeted)? The only possibility I can think of that's somewhat in-between, is a site tracking a user across their own site (first-party only), and targeting ads based on that collected data, rather than contracting that out to Google who can follow you across many sites. Is this what you have in mind? Other than this, I'm having trouble thinking of possibilities that exist between content-targeted and user-targeted via tracking. It's interesting to consider though.
        wolfgang42 9y ago
        The parent isn't arguing against content-targeted advertising, just pointing out that it doesn't have to be baked immutably into the content the way YouTube/Podcast sponsorship messages are. One example of this is the https://www.projectwonderful.com/ https://www.projectwonderful.com/ model of auctioning ad slots the same way you would sell e.g. a billboard. The only targeting in this model is based on demographics of the content's audience at large (e.g. advertising Bobcat in a Box on Explain XKCD).
        kakarot 9y ago
        When Linus Media Group sells advertising segments (an example of baked-in advertising), they don't provide user data. The advertisers purchase segments with the knowledge of the kind of crowd Linus Media Group attracts. Linus isn't going to open a video talking about women's pantyhose. He will open a video talking about an accessory, peripheral, or computer part that a viewer is actually more likely to buy. This is very effective advertising. Since most of LMG's content is medium and long format and doesn't rely on complete artistic integrity in each of its videos as part of the value, baked-in advertising is acceptable and understandable. While baked-in advertising still doesn't work for other kinds of creators, it doesn't mean some form of targeted advertising can not be done in an ethical fashion.
- kakarot 9y ago
  It's not enough. Patreon only works for certain audiences in its current state, and additionally lacks certain integration tooling that would make it more transparent.
krapp 9y ago
Any form of advertising would likely be unacceptable on a platform like this, as would any attempt to enforce copyright or limit the redistribution or reuse of content. Creators would just have to find another way to make money and accept that they have no practical right to "ownership" over the content they upload, regardless of legality. To clarify: I don't believe the set of people willing to adopt a FOSS distributed peer-to-peer video streaming platform and the set of people who believe advertising to be tolerable would likely overlap enough to provide a better or more stable market than the existing web already provides. And advertising on the web is already breaking down and likely doomed to fail as a concept.
- kakarot 9y ago
  > I don't believe the set of people willing to adopt a FOSS distributed peer-to-peer video streaming platform and the set of people who believe advertising to be tolerable would likely overlap enough to provide a better or more stable market than the existing web already provides. > And advertising on the web is already breaking down and likely doomed to fail as a concept. How did you reach these two conclusions?
  - krapp 9y ago
    From observing the hostility towards advertising on the web grow and become mainstream through the adoption of ad blockers, and ad-driven sites (like Youtube) seeming more and more desperate to actually find profitability through advertising. It seems to me that we're approaching a watershed where advertising on the web just stops being effective. And at least, on the web, sites can enforce some degree of control over content and have a monetization strategy in place. With a decentralized platform, it's more difficult to integrate and guarantee the efficacy of advertising because it's more difficult to control the platform and user experience.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      I use ad-blockers to prevent arbitrary parties from running arbitrary code on my computer. Not because I detest seeing a 5-10 second ad every 20-60m worth of videos or seeing a small text block or banner ad or sponsor list off to the side. People use adblockers not only to block unauthorized code but because advertising has become an avenue for fingerprinting and tracking, and thus, longterm, a tool of socioeconomic oppression. People are also fed up with ridiculous loading times and payload size. I have no problem with the way certain hosts choose to conduct advertising on their websites and I try not to block advertising on their websites. There will be stability one day in the form of a truce between advertisers and end users, where lightweight, self-hosted static content that isn't fetched remotely clientside or laden with scripts will find a way to make money in the general market again.
mtgx 9y ago
They can use stuff like Patreon or STEEM/other tipping cryptocurrencies (that should be baked into the platform with an easy to click upvote button). Before you laugh, I've seen people make $1,000 a day consistently like this. And this sort of community is still tiny (fewer than a million people). Can you imagine if 100 million or a billion people could upvote content like that? I think something like STEEM is the future of content monetization.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

Tools like Patreon can help fill this gap.

nathcd 9y ago
Also, there's no reason creators couldn't use "dumb ads" where they read ad copy during their videos, and sell the spots themselves. Seems to be the main revenue source in the podcast world. It feels weird to be an advocate for something like dumb advertising (maybe "content-targeted advertising" is a better name?), but dumb ads and Patreon really are a breath of fresh air relative to the status quo of web content.
- kakarot 9y ago
  Yes, it's one thing for serial content like a podcast or talk show, it's another for more artistic endeavors where it would lesson the artistic credibility to have an ad ingrained into the video. It's also not a suitable format for those who create many small 1-5m videos. Additionally, it prevents you from retroactively changing what ad gets sent with the video, which can lead to conflicts arising over severed business ties, and limit your overall ability to make residual profit from older videos.
  - nathcd 9y ago
    > Yes, it's one thing for serial content like a podcast or talk show, it's another for more artistic endeavors where it would lesson the artistic credibility to have an ad ingrained into the video. > It's also not a suitable format for those who create many small 1-5m videos. I don't think having platform-handled dynamic ads (ie YouTube) differs from these dynamics in any meaningful way. The difference that matters is that with dumb ads the creator has complete control. > Additionally, it prevents you from retroactively changing what ad gets sent with the video, which can lead to conflicts arising over severed business ties, and limit your overall ability to make residual profit from older videos. This is a feature (of content-targeted advertising), not a bug. If a business model relies on tracking and targeting unknowing users who aren't aware that they can resist being tracked and targeted, maybe it was a crappy business model in the first place.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      > This is a feature (of content-targeted advertising), not a bug. If a business model relies on tracking and targeting unknowing users who aren't aware that they can resist being tracked and targeted, maybe it was a crappy business model in the first place. This is a false dichotomy. There exists a large, partly unexplored space between hard embedded pre-recorded ads and targeted advertising that makes use of tracking.
      - nathcd 9y ago
        Hmmm, that's a possibility I haven't considered. I suppose because I'm having trouble imagining what that in-between space looks like. If an ad is targeted at a user, doesn't that necessarily mean they were tracked to some degree (i.e. some data is known about them, and an ad is being shown to them based on whatever that known data is)? Conversely, if nothing is known about the user (they haven't been tracked at all), how can an ad be targeted at them (besides knowing they are viewing a webpage on a certain topic, but then we're back at being content-targeted)? The only possibility I can think of that's somewhat in-between, is a site tracking a user across their own site (first-party only), and targeting ads based on that collected data, rather than contracting that out to Google who can follow you across many sites. Is this what you have in mind? Other than this, I'm having trouble thinking of possibilities that exist between content-targeted and user-targeted via tracking. It's interesting to consider though.
        wolfgang42 9y ago
        The parent isn't arguing against content-targeted advertising, just pointing out that it doesn't have to be baked immutably into the content the way YouTube/Podcast sponsorship messages are. One example of this is the https://www.projectwonderful.com/ https://www.projectwonderful.com/ model of auctioning ad slots the same way you would sell e.g. a billboard. The only targeting in this model is based on demographics of the content's audience at large (e.g. advertising Bobcat in a Box on Explain XKCD).
        kakarot 9y ago
        When Linus Media Group sells advertising segments (an example of baked-in advertising), they don't provide user data. The advertisers purchase segments with the knowledge of the kind of crowd Linus Media Group attracts. Linus isn't going to open a video talking about women's pantyhose. He will open a video talking about an accessory, peripheral, or computer part that a viewer is actually more likely to buy. This is very effective advertising. Since most of LMG's content is medium and long format and doesn't rely on complete artistic integrity in each of its videos as part of the value, baked-in advertising is acceptable and understandable. While baked-in advertising still doesn't work for other kinds of creators, it doesn't mean some form of targeted advertising can not be done in an ethical fashion.
kakarot 9y ago
It's not enough. Patreon only works for certain audiences in its current state, and additionally lacks certain integration tooling that would make it more transparent.

krapp 9y ago

Any form of advertising would likely be unacceptable on a platform like this, as would any attempt to enforce copyright or limit the redistribution or reuse of content. Creators would just have to find another way to make money and accept that they have no practical right to "ownership" over the content they upload, regardless of legality. To clarify: I don't believe the set of people willing to adopt a FOSS distributed peer-to-peer video streaming platform and the set of people who believe advertising to be tolerable would likely overlap enough to provide a better or more stable market than the existing web already provides. And advertising on the web is already breaking down and likely doomed to fail as a concept.

kakarot 9y ago
> I don't believe the set of people willing to adopt a FOSS distributed peer-to-peer video streaming platform and the set of people who believe advertising to be tolerable would likely overlap enough to provide a better or more stable market than the existing web already provides. > And advertising on the web is already breaking down and likely doomed to fail as a concept. How did you reach these two conclusions?
- krapp 9y ago
  From observing the hostility towards advertising on the web grow and become mainstream through the adoption of ad blockers, and ad-driven sites (like Youtube) seeming more and more desperate to actually find profitability through advertising. It seems to me that we're approaching a watershed where advertising on the web just stops being effective. And at least, on the web, sites can enforce some degree of control over content and have a monetization strategy in place. With a decentralized platform, it's more difficult to integrate and guarantee the efficacy of advertising because it's more difficult to control the platform and user experience.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    I use ad-blockers to prevent arbitrary parties from running arbitrary code on my computer. Not because I detest seeing a 5-10 second ad every 20-60m worth of videos or seeing a small text block or banner ad or sponsor list off to the side. People use adblockers not only to block unauthorized code but because advertising has become an avenue for fingerprinting and tracking, and thus, longterm, a tool of socioeconomic oppression. People are also fed up with ridiculous loading times and payload size. I have no problem with the way certain hosts choose to conduct advertising on their websites and I try not to block advertising on their websites. There will be stability one day in the form of a truce between advertisers and end users, where lightweight, self-hosted static content that isn't fetched remotely clientside or laden with scripts will find a way to make money in the general market again.

mtgx 9y ago

They can use stuff like Patreon or STEEM/other tipping cryptocurrencies (that should be baked into the platform with an easy to click upvote button). Before you laugh, I've seen people make $1,000 a day consistently like this. And this sort of community is still tiny (fewer than a million people). Can you imagine if 100 million or a billion people could upvote content like that? I think something like STEEM is the future of content monetization.