6 ms·

Anyone know a good alternative to ProtonMail with no ties to the Israeli Military? Preferably European.

mitchellberry 9y ago
Mailfence. I'd be very interested to hear the problems with protonmail, considering all they claim to see is email metadata. Edit: ok some quick googling says its related to ddos protection, which is still in effect currently, the malicious intent here seems overstated. The official statement - https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...
dvdkhlng 9y ago
* https://posteo.de/en https://posteo.de/en * https://mailbox.org https://mailbox.org posteo implements multiple encryption schemes: encrypt incoming mails with GPG (making them inaccessible by any end device not having the corresponding secret key). Or encrypt via the login passphrase with transparent decryption on authorized access.
- openplatypus 9y ago
  So does Mailbox.org but unlike posteo Mailbox allows using own domain. The only issue is "German" quality customer support. So be patient and expect to receive terse "no." ;)
- ionised 9y ago
  Another vote for Posteo.
- rocqua 9y ago
  It is great data hygiene to use encryption at rest. However, it gives no security guarantees. You still need to trust posteo. If posteo wants, they can read all incoming email. Their security scheme depends solely on their good intentions. Still great that their data at rest is encrypted in a way even they cannot read. The scheme does defend against third parties outside of posteo being able to access data, or coerce posteo to decrypt data. Posteo could probably still be coerced to push out a fraudulent client update that still breaks their encrpytion, but that is a very hard problem to deal with.
  - dvdkhlng 9y ago
    > Posteo could probably still be coerced to push out a fraudulent client update that still breaks their encrpytion, but that is a very hard problem to deal with. They are based in Germany and would need to be coerced in accordance to german law. I don't think that there is something like National Security Letters in Germany, so doing such a thing without (eventual?) public disclosure seems unlikely. Also posteo regularly releases as much information as they are allowed to regarding their interaction with law enforcement, e.g.: https://posteo.de/en/site/transparency_report https://posteo.de/en/site/transparency_report
    - rocqua 9y ago
      There are other methods of coercion than courts, but I agree that the German courts are probably much safer than the American courts. In any case, the fraudulent client update is a very hard hole to patch. The only solution for this I know of is local hosting. At the moment, defending against this in web-apps is simply not possible.
      - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        There's one way I know to stop that. Ipfs. Its immutable, for a given key. And its easy to see what an IPNS link points to. It may not be a way to verify, but others could do that hard work. But it strictly shows proof that codebase for a web app hasn't changed.
        dvdkhlng 9y ago
        The only real antidote against unauthorized access is using end-to-end encryption between email's sender and recipient(s), via PGP/GPG or S/MIME. Unfortunately this requires the sender's cooperation. As long as the sender does not cooperate, there will always be some leg of the communication path that is vulnerable.
        crankylinuxuser 9y ago
scandox 9y ago
I'd be interested in your rebuttal of this: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...
- caio1982 9y ago
  Thanks for that! I really didn't know they had a response to these claims. However it's not hard to see this can just be a PR shield anyway.
  - welly 9y ago
    Then they can't win. An accusation has been made, they've refuted the claims with a response, response is dismissed as a PR shield. What are they going to do?
    - awestroke 9y ago
      They could stop doing business with a company that has strong links to IDF.
      - nucleartacos 9y ago
        More anti-Jewish sentiment...
      - seppin 9y ago
        That would be any Israeli tech company. Or any Chinese company (ties to PLA). Quickly becoming more true in the US as well.
        nucleartacos 9y ago
        Nothing at all wrong with the IDF or Israel. I happily support my Jewish brothers and sisters buy buying Israeli-made goods.
    - fooker 9y ago
staticelf 9y ago
How is protonmail tied to the Israeli Military?
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  It isn't. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...
zouhair 9y ago
https://tutanota.com/ https://tutanota.com/
hakimoto 9y ago
+1 for Tutanota. The new client is simply amazing - https://mail.tutanota.com/ https://mail.tutanota.com/ - it convinced me to go Premium which is way cheaper than PM.
jstanley 9y ago
ProtonMail does not have "ties with the Israeli military". Where are you reading this stuff?
briandear 9y ago
Are you wanted by the Israeli military? And, do you actually have any evidence of "ties" beyond ridiculous conspiracy theories? Radware isn't the "Israeli Military" -- and even if they were, I'd trust them more than I'd trust, say France [1] or any EU country for that matter -- even Germany. [2] [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/26/french-contradictions-data-surveillance https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/26/french-contradictions-da... [2] https://www.opendemocracy.net/digitaliberties/sara-bundtzen/why-you-should-know-about-germanys-new-surveillance-law https://www.opendemocracy.net/digitaliberties/sara-bundtzen/...
StreamBright 9y ago
Not sure what you are talking about. What does a Swiss email service has to do with Israeli military? I like conteos as much as the other guy but these allegations are a bit far fetched say the least.
bluehatbrit 9y ago
I've been very happy with migadu.com although I've only recently moved to it. But they make a pledge to privacy in a similar fashion to ProtonMail. I like their pricing and simplicity, they're worth a look.
pingiun 9y ago
posteo.de is very privacy friendly too
bogomipz 9y ago
Can you elaborate on ProtonMail's "ties to the Israeli Military"?
- timdorr 9y ago
  It's a weak conspiracy theory: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...
gorokan 9y ago
Not exactly an anonymous service as ProtonMail, but a business-oriented secure mail - https://dekko.io https://dekko.io. Has a free tier, too.

Mailfence. I'd be very interested to hear the problems with protonmail, considering all they claim to see is email metadata. Edit: ok some quick googling says its related to ddos protection, which is still in effect currently, the malicious intent here seems overstated. The official statement - https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...

dvdkhlng 9y ago

* https://posteo.de/en https://posteo.de/en * https://mailbox.org https://mailbox.org posteo implements multiple encryption schemes: encrypt incoming mails with GPG (making them inaccessible by any end device not having the corresponding secret key). Or encrypt via the login passphrase with transparent decryption on authorized access.

openplatypus 9y ago
So does Mailbox.org but unlike posteo Mailbox allows using own domain. The only issue is "German" quality customer support. So be patient and expect to receive terse "no." ;)
ionised 9y ago
Another vote for Posteo.
rocqua 9y ago
It is great data hygiene to use encryption at rest. However, it gives no security guarantees. You still need to trust posteo. If posteo wants, they can read all incoming email. Their security scheme depends solely on their good intentions. Still great that their data at rest is encrypted in a way even they cannot read. The scheme does defend against third parties outside of posteo being able to access data, or coerce posteo to decrypt data. Posteo could probably still be coerced to push out a fraudulent client update that still breaks their encrpytion, but that is a very hard problem to deal with.
- dvdkhlng 9y ago
  > Posteo could probably still be coerced to push out a fraudulent client update that still breaks their encrpytion, but that is a very hard problem to deal with. They are based in Germany and would need to be coerced in accordance to german law. I don't think that there is something like National Security Letters in Germany, so doing such a thing without (eventual?) public disclosure seems unlikely. Also posteo regularly releases as much information as they are allowed to regarding their interaction with law enforcement, e.g.: https://posteo.de/en/site/transparency_report https://posteo.de/en/site/transparency_report
  - rocqua 9y ago
    There are other methods of coercion than courts, but I agree that the German courts are probably much safer than the American courts. In any case, the fraudulent client update is a very hard hole to patch. The only solution for this I know of is local hosting. At the moment, defending against this in web-apps is simply not possible.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      There's one way I know to stop that. Ipfs. Its immutable, for a given key. And its easy to see what an IPNS link points to. It may not be a way to verify, but others could do that hard work. But it strictly shows proof that codebase for a web app hasn't changed.
      - dvdkhlng 9y ago
        The only real antidote against unauthorized access is using end-to-end encryption between email's sender and recipient(s), via PGP/GPG or S/MIME. Unfortunately this requires the sender's cooperation. As long as the sender does not cooperate, there will always be some leg of the communication path that is vulnerable.
        crankylinuxuser 9y ago

scandox 9y ago

I'd be interested in your rebuttal of this: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...

caio1982 9y ago
Thanks for that! I really didn't know they had a response to these claims. However it's not hard to see this can just be a PR shield anyway.
- welly 9y ago
  Then they can't win. An accusation has been made, they've refuted the claims with a response, response is dismissed as a PR shield. What are they going to do?
  - awestroke 9y ago
    They could stop doing business with a company that has strong links to IDF.
    - nucleartacos 9y ago
      More anti-Jewish sentiment...
    - seppin 9y ago
      That would be any Israeli tech company. Or any Chinese company (ties to PLA). Quickly becoming more true in the US as well.
      - nucleartacos 9y ago
        Nothing at all wrong with the IDF or Israel. I happily support my Jewish brothers and sisters buy buying Israeli-made goods.
  - fooker 9y ago

staticelf 9y ago

How is protonmail tied to the Israeli Military?

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
It isn't. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...

zouhair 9y ago

https://tutanota.com/ https://tutanota.com/

hakimoto 9y ago

+1 for Tutanota. The new client is simply amazing - https://mail.tutanota.com/ https://mail.tutanota.com/ - it convinced me to go Premium which is way cheaper than PM.

jstanley 9y ago

ProtonMail does not have "ties with the Israeli military". Where are you reading this stuff?

briandear 9y ago

Are you wanted by the Israeli military? And, do you actually have any evidence of "ties" beyond ridiculous conspiracy theories? Radware isn't the "Israeli Military" -- and even if they were, I'd trust them more than I'd trust, say France [1] or any EU country for that matter -- even Germany. [2] [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/26/french-contradictions-data-surveillance https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/26/french-contradictions-da... [2] https://www.opendemocracy.net/digitaliberties/sara-bundtzen/why-you-should-know-about-germanys-new-surveillance-law https://www.opendemocracy.net/digitaliberties/sara-bundtzen/...

StreamBright 9y ago

Not sure what you are talking about. What does a Swiss email service has to do with Israeli military? I like conteos as much as the other guy but these allegations are a bit far fetched say the least.

bluehatbrit 9y ago

I've been very happy with migadu.com although I've only recently moved to it. But they make a pledge to privacy in a similar fashion to ProtonMail. I like their pricing and simplicity, they're worth a look.

pingiun 9y ago

posteo.de is very privacy friendly too

bogomipz 9y ago

Can you elaborate on ProtonMail's "ties to the Israeli Military"?

timdorr 9y ago
It's a weak conspiracy theory: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-israel-radware/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/protonmail-isr...

gorokan 9y ago

Not exactly an anonymous service as ProtonMail, but a business-oriented secure mail - https://dekko.io https://dekko.io. Has a free tier, too.