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> Biggest owner has the same incentives as the smallest owner Biggest owner can steal smallest owners money because biggest owner controls the consensus rules

> Biggest owner has the same incentives as the smallest owner Biggest owner can steal smallest owners money because biggest owner controls the consensus rules. So no, the incentives aren't aligned. > what is the force The only one that matters : Supply and demand, and no ability to cheat the system. The only thing that is happening is more and more people are recognizing it.

vasilipupkin 9y ago
Biggest owner can steal smaller owners money, maybe, depending on the POS design. But that would make no sense. I mean the biggest owners have the biggest stake in the integrity of the network, no? supply and demand can clear at X and at 0.5X, so that doesn't answer the question for me.
- Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  Then you fail to understand the incentive structure. The only game-theory outcome to a PoS system is a monopoly. That's the reason why there aren't any successful ones. Because they require trust.
  - vasilipupkin 9y ago
    Agree, I fail to understand what you mean. If I'm a large owner of a POS coin, why would I want to steal smaller owners' coins ? Don't I want them to trust the system and keep buying more coins ?
  - erkkie 9y ago
    What about a hybrid PoS/PoW system? In reality, bitcoin as PoW is also near monopoly, more like oligopoly, still requiring trust.
    - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      If you think this you don't understand the technology, and therefore don't understand its value.
      - erkkie 9y ago
        Elaborate? I mean mining pools in China with the oligopoly bit. Are you saying that's not a problem? I would say the current bitcoin PoW scheme is inherently seeking to end up in a few actors having most of the power due to the higher and higher barriers of entry to mining on custom silicon. ELI5 why I'm wrong?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        Nodes define and police consensus in bitcoin, not miners. Miners have a single choice : mine for bitcoin according to node consensus rules, or don't. That is the only power they have.
        vasilipupkin 9y ago
        in theory. But in practice, if tomorrow fork XYZ comes out and miners decide to mine that fork, instead of the current one, the current one is finished. So, don't they hold all the power in practice ?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        No. You completely don't get how it works. Only by mining according to bitcoin consensus rules do they get bitcoin rewards. Their fork relies upon you using their node client in order to give them tokens. If nodes don't switch clients, no one even knows the fork exists. This entire episode over the past year has demonstrated this again and again. Miners talk a big game, but in the end, they do as they're told.

vasilipupkin 9y ago

Biggest owner can steal smaller owners money, maybe, depending on the POS design. But that would make no sense. I mean the biggest owners have the biggest stake in the integrity of the network, no? supply and demand can clear at X and at 0.5X, so that doesn't answer the question for me.

Frogolocalypse 9y ago
Then you fail to understand the incentive structure. The only game-theory outcome to a PoS system is a monopoly. That's the reason why there aren't any successful ones. Because they require trust.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  Agree, I fail to understand what you mean. If I'm a large owner of a POS coin, why would I want to steal smaller owners' coins ? Don't I want them to trust the system and keep buying more coins ?
- erkkie 9y ago
  What about a hybrid PoS/PoW system? In reality, bitcoin as PoW is also near monopoly, more like oligopoly, still requiring trust.
  - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
    If you think this you don't understand the technology, and therefore don't understand its value.
    - erkkie 9y ago
      Elaborate? I mean mining pools in China with the oligopoly bit. Are you saying that's not a problem? I would say the current bitcoin PoW scheme is inherently seeking to end up in a few actors having most of the power due to the higher and higher barriers of entry to mining on custom silicon. ELI5 why I'm wrong?
      - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        Nodes define and police consensus in bitcoin, not miners. Miners have a single choice : mine for bitcoin according to node consensus rules, or don't. That is the only power they have.
        vasilipupkin 9y ago
        in theory. But in practice, if tomorrow fork XYZ comes out and miners decide to mine that fork, instead of the current one, the current one is finished. So, don't they hold all the power in practice ?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        No. You completely don't get how it works. Only by mining according to bitcoin consensus rules do they get bitcoin rewards. Their fork relies upon you using their node client in order to give them tokens. If nodes don't switch clients, no one even knows the fork exists. This entire episode over the past year has demonstrated this again and again. Miners talk a big game, but in the end, they do as they're told.