8 ms·

>Free-market AA could offer better incentives Baseless/Unsubstantiated comment. Unions come in when the people who are working there feel they aren't being tre

>Free-market AA could offer better incentives Baseless/Unsubstantiated comment. Unions come in when the people who are working there feel they aren't being treated fairly. Sure Free-market AA could offer better incentives to SOME, but at the detriment to MOST.

conanbatt 9y ago
Can't speak to the peculiarities of this situation, but in general, unions have the exact opposite effect: they benefit SOME workers at the expense of MOST workers outside the bargain. Argentina is a model example of what happens when the pilots have a strong union: they have the highest pilot salary in south america and there are consistent service outages due to strikes on holidays. Fear not that if union workers could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  > Fear not that if literally anyone in the world could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working. Fixed that for you.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    I agree 100%
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    So you're in favor of a 100% estate tax, and outlawing parents creating trust funds or other vehicles for their children to get around that tax, yes?
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      jackvalentine didn't propose anything, just stated a fact. You should ask politely before trying to put things in people's mouths.
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        It's the logical conclusion, though. If it's a fact that anyone who can "collect a check" without working will do so, and if it's considered bad that someone would do that, then a 100% estate tax would fix one big way people manage that. Since as we all know, anyone who inherits enough money that they don't need to work will never work.
        jackvalentine 9y ago
        Don't put words in my mouth.
        conanbatt 9y ago
        It isn't. Stop insisting on that. If you wish to talk about the 100% estate tax I'm willing to talk about it tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPdjuPPtnWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPdjuPPtnWA
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        I'm more interested in why: 1. People selectively choose to care about whether another person or class of people can live without needing to work, and 2. People selectively advocate for contradictory universal statements about human nature depending on which humans they're talking about (in other words, applying different "universal" rules about motivation and behavior depending on whether the hypothetical person they're talking about is already wealthy or not).
        conanbatt 9y ago
        My original comment about collecting a paycheck without working is about the contrast between the alledged dignity of union workers versus their intended goal. jackvalentine said that the intended goal is shared by everyone. And then I agreed. There is nothing immoral in living without needing to work. ITs sometimes the opposite: should mentally deranged people or children be forced to work or live free? Those leeches. In the future its possible nobody will need to work. Thats just not the world we live in today.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > they have the highest pilot salary in south america Sounds like a pretty good benefit for everyone involved. > there are consistent service outages due to strikes on holidays. Sucks for consumers, but your point was about the workers, not about consumers, etc.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    > Sounds like a pretty good benefit for everyone involved. Yes, its just a terrible one for everyone else. Thats the whole point. > Sucks for consumers, but your point was about the workers, not about consumers, etc. Consumers are workers. If we talk only about pilots, its also bad: the union prevents other pilots from being hired.
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      >Consumers are workers. This is circular logic, isn't it? It's like saying McDonald's should only pay workers $3 an hour because I, some uninvolved person who happens to be a worker elsewhere, would like a cheaper hamburger. That's not pro-worker, that's pro-hamburger. If the question is about a fair playing field between bosses and workers, I don't understand what a strike inconveniencing people has to do with it.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        It isnt, because not all workers can unionize. In consequence, unionized get the better on non unionized. The artificial increase of wages has the same effect that the artificual increase of profits
        jackvalentine 9y ago
        > It isnt, because not all workers can unionize. Yes they can.
        conanbatt 9y ago
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Fear not that if union workers could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working. You can look to the TSA or the NYPD for examples of this happening in the US. There are TSA employees who have patterns of repeatedly showing up to work drunk, sleeping on the job, or stealing from passengers' bags and have managed to keep their jobs, because And let's not forget three years ago, when the NYPD openly refused to do their job for three weeks[0], but still got paid all the same[1]. [0] I'm not complaining that the NYPD stopped enforcing low-level drug offenses that shouldn't even be crimes in the first place, but they literally collected paychecks while openly refusing to do it. [1] https://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/ https://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-exec...
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  Without labor unions I would not be alive right now. I would've died young after slaving my life away in a coal mine, in permanent debt to the company that owned it. But please. Do go on about how unions harm most workers.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    I don't know where you are from, or the situation you are talking about. If you give me some context, I'm confident I can make a case.
    - munchbunny 9y ago
      The parent poster is probably referring to the American labor movement in the early 1900s.
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      I grew up in the Appalachian coal belt of the US. If you'd like to continue making blanket statements about unions being harmful to "most" workers, I'll be happy to give you citations of what life in the mines was like before the unions.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        I dont need citations of worker exploitation, i have enough done by the state, by the capitalist and by other workers. Im from a country where almost half the employment is under the table, and the rest is unionized. Teachers, truckers and state workers enjoy plenty of perks and would defend like you are the role of unions. They should if they simply respond to their own incentives. The result? Logistic cost is 50% the cost of food, education tripled staff and got worse results in the last decade and state spending is 50% of gdp. The teacher can reminisce of how sad it would be for the kids if she didnt have such benefits or were fired and would ask you a name of who is being punished by her benefits. And you couldn't answer with a persons name like the teacher could. But its still very real.
- kalleboo 9y ago
  Why is Argentina the model example, and not, say Sweden? And are you saying that the pilots unions in the US are weak?
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    The pilots in argentina is a remarkably powerful union. I single it out because im argentinian
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      I would argue that the behavior of unions in Argentina has more to do with Argentinian culture than the strength of the unions. In Sweden unions are also very powerful (to the point where e.g. laws about minimum wage don't even exist since that's covered by the unions, and unemployment benefits to a large portion are distributed by the unions rather than the state), but Swedish culture has a stronger emphasis on consensus so the results are different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsjöbaden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsjöbaden_Agreement It could mean that unions or some forms of unions (state-backing etc) are incompatible with certain cultures though.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        I know that europe has collaborative uniones and they have shown very different results. I have yet to study the german transport case. The unions in america and Argentina are more similar to italian and spanish unions which are rent seeking and confrontational. In argentina, unions have constitutional level protection, and union leaders have pseudo diplo powers( they are harder to arrest for ex). The result is very rich union leaders and all industries where unions exist have terrible employment and costs
- emmelaich 9y ago
  Australia had one of it's most dramatic Union disputes with airline pilots. The airline / government (Labor/leftwing!) won. During the dispute the Air Force supplied some pilots and some pilots were brought from overseas. The result is much cheaper airfares and no loss in quality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots%27_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots%27_disp...
- bernawil 9y ago
  Argentina has the highest salaries in many other jobs too. Correlation is not causation and all that fuzz. Also, that piece of propaganda conveniently forgets that Avianca just suffered the longest ever strike in Colombia, not really the most worker or union friendly place.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    > Argentina has the highest salaries in many other jobs too. I get the point. Pilots however, are super interchangeable, like software engineers. There's no reason peruvian, brasilian, paraguayan , brazilian and chilean pilots wouldnt move to argentina to work and depress wages. Except the biggest payer and employer of pilots in argentina is the State. And it doesnt hire that many foreigners, for some reason... > Also, that piece of propaganda conveniently forgets that Avianca just suffered the longest ever strike in Colombia, not really the most worker or union friendly place. I dont know what colombia has to do with argentinian pilots.

conanbatt 9y ago

Can't speak to the peculiarities of this situation, but in general, unions have the exact opposite effect: they benefit SOME workers at the expense of MOST workers outside the bargain. Argentina is a model example of what happens when the pilots have a strong union: they have the highest pilot salary in south america and there are consistent service outages due to strikes on holidays. Fear not that if union workers could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working.

jackvalentine 9y ago
> Fear not that if literally anyone in the world could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working. Fixed that for you.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  I agree 100%
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  So you're in favor of a 100% estate tax, and outlawing parents creating trust funds or other vehicles for their children to get around that tax, yes?
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    jackvalentine didn't propose anything, just stated a fact. You should ask politely before trying to put things in people's mouths.
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      It's the logical conclusion, though. If it's a fact that anyone who can "collect a check" without working will do so, and if it's considered bad that someone would do that, then a 100% estate tax would fix one big way people manage that. Since as we all know, anyone who inherits enough money that they don't need to work will never work.
      - jackvalentine 9y ago
        Don't put words in my mouth.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        It isn't. Stop insisting on that. If you wish to talk about the 100% estate tax I'm willing to talk about it tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPdjuPPtnWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPdjuPPtnWA
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        I'm more interested in why: 1. People selectively choose to care about whether another person or class of people can live without needing to work, and 2. People selectively advocate for contradictory universal statements about human nature depending on which humans they're talking about (in other words, applying different "universal" rules about motivation and behavior depending on whether the hypothetical person they're talking about is already wealthy or not).
        conanbatt 9y ago
        My original comment about collecting a paycheck without working is about the contrast between the alledged dignity of union workers versus their intended goal. jackvalentine said that the intended goal is shared by everyone. And then I agreed. There is nothing immoral in living without needing to work. ITs sometimes the opposite: should mentally deranged people or children be forced to work or live free? Those leeches. In the future its possible nobody will need to work. Thats just not the world we live in today.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
> they have the highest pilot salary in south america Sounds like a pretty good benefit for everyone involved. > there are consistent service outages due to strikes on holidays. Sucks for consumers, but your point was about the workers, not about consumers, etc.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  > Sounds like a pretty good benefit for everyone involved. Yes, its just a terrible one for everyone else. Thats the whole point. > Sucks for consumers, but your point was about the workers, not about consumers, etc. Consumers are workers. If we talk only about pilots, its also bad: the union prevents other pilots from being hired.
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    >Consumers are workers. This is circular logic, isn't it? It's like saying McDonald's should only pay workers $3 an hour because I, some uninvolved person who happens to be a worker elsewhere, would like a cheaper hamburger. That's not pro-worker, that's pro-hamburger. If the question is about a fair playing field between bosses and workers, I don't understand what a strike inconveniencing people has to do with it.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      It isnt, because not all workers can unionize. In consequence, unionized get the better on non unionized. The artificial increase of wages has the same effect that the artificual increase of profits
      - jackvalentine 9y ago
        > It isnt, because not all workers can unionize. Yes they can.
        conanbatt 9y ago
chimeracoder 9y ago
> Fear not that if union workers could collect a paycheck without showing up to work and no consequence, you would not see any working. You can look to the TSA or the NYPD for examples of this happening in the US. There are TSA employees who have patterns of repeatedly showing up to work drunk, sleeping on the job, or stealing from passengers' bags and have managed to keep their jobs, because And let's not forget three years ago, when the NYPD openly refused to do their job for three weeks[0], but still got paid all the same[1]. [0] I'm not complaining that the NYPD stopped enforcing low-level drug offenses that shouldn't even be crimes in the first place, but they literally collected paychecks while openly refusing to do it. [1] https://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/ https://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-exec...
ubernostrum 9y ago
Without labor unions I would not be alive right now. I would've died young after slaving my life away in a coal mine, in permanent debt to the company that owned it. But please. Do go on about how unions harm most workers.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  I don't know where you are from, or the situation you are talking about. If you give me some context, I'm confident I can make a case.
  - munchbunny 9y ago
    The parent poster is probably referring to the American labor movement in the early 1900s.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    I grew up in the Appalachian coal belt of the US. If you'd like to continue making blanket statements about unions being harmful to "most" workers, I'll be happy to give you citations of what life in the mines was like before the unions.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      I dont need citations of worker exploitation, i have enough done by the state, by the capitalist and by other workers. Im from a country where almost half the employment is under the table, and the rest is unionized. Teachers, truckers and state workers enjoy plenty of perks and would defend like you are the role of unions. They should if they simply respond to their own incentives. The result? Logistic cost is 50% the cost of food, education tripled staff and got worse results in the last decade and state spending is 50% of gdp. The teacher can reminisce of how sad it would be for the kids if she didnt have such benefits or were fired and would ask you a name of who is being punished by her benefits. And you couldn't answer with a persons name like the teacher could. But its still very real.
kalleboo 9y ago
Why is Argentina the model example, and not, say Sweden? And are you saying that the pilots unions in the US are weak?
- conanbatt 9y ago
  The pilots in argentina is a remarkably powerful union. I single it out because im argentinian
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    I would argue that the behavior of unions in Argentina has more to do with Argentinian culture than the strength of the unions. In Sweden unions are also very powerful (to the point where e.g. laws about minimum wage don't even exist since that's covered by the unions, and unemployment benefits to a large portion are distributed by the unions rather than the state), but Swedish culture has a stronger emphasis on consensus so the results are different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsjöbaden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsjöbaden_Agreement It could mean that unions or some forms of unions (state-backing etc) are incompatible with certain cultures though.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      I know that europe has collaborative uniones and they have shown very different results. I have yet to study the german transport case. The unions in america and Argentina are more similar to italian and spanish unions which are rent seeking and confrontational. In argentina, unions have constitutional level protection, and union leaders have pseudo diplo powers( they are harder to arrest for ex). The result is very rich union leaders and all industries where unions exist have terrible employment and costs
emmelaich 9y ago
Australia had one of it's most dramatic Union disputes with airline pilots. The airline / government (Labor/leftwing!) won. During the dispute the Air Force supplied some pilots and some pilots were brought from overseas. The result is much cheaper airfares and no loss in quality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots%27_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots%27_disp...
bernawil 9y ago
Argentina has the highest salaries in many other jobs too. Correlation is not causation and all that fuzz. Also, that piece of propaganda conveniently forgets that Avianca just suffered the longest ever strike in Colombia, not really the most worker or union friendly place.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  > Argentina has the highest salaries in many other jobs too. I get the point. Pilots however, are super interchangeable, like software engineers. There's no reason peruvian, brasilian, paraguayan , brazilian and chilean pilots wouldnt move to argentina to work and depress wages. Except the biggest payer and employer of pilots in argentina is the State. And it doesnt hire that many foreigners, for some reason... > Also, that piece of propaganda conveniently forgets that Avianca just suffered the longest ever strike in Colombia, not really the most worker or union friendly place. I dont know what colombia has to do with argentinian pilots.