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This thread is a really interesting example of how easily humans can simultaneously hold conflicting beliefs/opinions. I'm gathering that a lot of developers an

by sjbase 9y ago

This thread is a really interesting example of how easily humans can simultaneously hold conflicting beliefs/opinions. I'm gathering that a lot of developers and businesspeople here: a) are very concerned about collection of their own data b) derive material value from Crashlytics, Mixpanel and other "tracking tools" for their work It's tricky to reconcile those two ideas.

draw_down 9y ago
The tracking I do of my users is good. The tracking others do to me, as their user, is bad.
BLKNSLVR 9y ago
As an avid amateur student of human behaviour, I appreciate your keen eye for this. I actually don't think it's tricky to reconcile the two. The people conducting the analytics are doing it 'for the right reasons'. The people being analysed don't trust anyone to do anything 'for the right reasons' or without some amount of scope creep around the edges of 'the right reasons'. Self versus someone else. I've got the best intentions, but I don't think anyone else has. It touches on the theory of: if a company was a person it would have the traits of a psychopath / sociopath. The ends justifies the means. Grow the business, and analytics is the best way to do it, or to visualise the progress and adjust the method. Human as part of the business: We gotta do these things to give ourselves the greatest chance of success Human as consumer of app: Why would they possibly need access to THAT? There are definitely multi-personalities involved. WHich seems increasingly normal. Wasn't there an HN article on that recently? The brain is a denial-machine. It enables hypocrisy, and I can only theorise that this is due to our inability to survive if that wasn't the case.
- sjbase 9y ago
  Intuitively I'd agree that "best intentions of self vs. others" is probably the mechanism behind this type of cognitive dissonance. What I find harrowing is that in all likelihood, this is true for myself as well in ways that I'm not aware of! Your point about denial also reminded me of an article a read a couple years ago, attempting to explain why humans deceive themselves. The soft conclusion: we deceive ourselves in order to better deceive others. In this case, we convince ourselves that we have the best intentions in order to convince others of the same. I can't find the exact article, but this is similar and refers to the same research by Robert Trivers. It's an interesting read: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-deceive-ourselves-to-better-deceive-others/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-d...
shostack 9y ago
I'm a good example of this. I'm an ad guy and a marketer, and as such I'm much more intimately familiar with how this stuff works, what it collects, and how it is used than most. I'm also going to expand what I say beyond just the world of apps, because it is really applicable to anything digital these days, whether it is in an app or on the web, because I hate thinking of those things in silos. To be a successful marketer in this day and age, proper analytics is a non-negotiable requirement. If I was interviewing somewhere and they told me that I had to market and advertise for an app or website, but that I couldn't track things, that would be the end of that discussion. I would be set up for failure from day one. If anyone wants to make a case otherwise, I'd ask that they share their credentials as someone sufficiently experienced and qualified to make such a case, and how they would go about being successful without that data when pretty much any significant digital (or non-digital to an extent) strategy these days requires that data to measure success and optimize for it. So there's that piece. As an end-user, this is often a source of cognitive dissonance for me, and it has grown over the years. 8+ years ago, I had very different feelings when people talked to me about what was being tracked and how it was being used. It was less audience-centric, cross-device/channel tracking was not really a thing yet, and we didn't have anywhere near the aggressive tracking that FB and Google have today (even though some of the first signs of that were showing up publicly perhaps). Today I'm pretty paranoid about the data out there, who has access to it, and how that data can be used, both for anti-competitive business purposes, as well as more nefarious uses, even if unintended (such as via a data breach). I run noscript at home, and Firefox with uBlock Origin at home and on my phone. I personally don't have an issue with people collecting usage data for improving the product and their business, but there's a weird gray area for me when they start using that data against me for things like dynamic pricing, dark patterns, selling email hashes to cookie onboarding services for retargeting, etc. I also recognize that while I may not have much to hide, I know I'm pretty lucky in that regard compared to others who may not want to be identified by certain means, and I fully respect and appreciate their desires to remain untracked in that way. For example, I am pretty upset at how Reddit is moving towards increased tracking and verification as they march towards heavier monetization. That's an example of a community with many people who NEED to remain untracked for safety purposes, and that data, were it to fall into the wrong hands, could prove dangerous for them. Likewise, the simple act of forcing the collection of it could turn them away from such a platform which could indirectly cause them harm (suicidal users seeking help, abuse victims, whistle-blowers, etc.). So where do I net out with all of this and how do I sleep at night? Well, for my part I do what I can to be sensitive to protecting PII, not collecting data that I'm likely to never need, and really weighing heavily the tradeoffs and risks when I implement something like the Google or FB tracking tags anywhere, and what I may pass into them. I also make an effort to set the record straight and educate people on what I know of tracking, and how to best limit collection if you are concerned, because I think it is something everyone should be educated about so they can make those decisions in an informed matter themselves. I respect that some people hate my profession and think I'm evil, and I'm never going to win those people over, nor do I really feel the need to. But I'll say that to be competitive with marketing a product or service in this day and age, you dramatically hurt your chances of success if you DON'T have some decent tracking, and so the realities of the situation often dictate what happens in many businesses. My guess is the people who have such black and white views haven't ever been tasked with marketing a product in a true professional capacity, and if they have I'd love to hear their stories and what led them to their views.
Feniks 9y ago
Everyone has bills to pay, I understand. You're not doing anything really evil like joining the SS.

by sjbase 9y ago

draw_down 9y ago

The tracking I do of my users is good. The tracking others do to me, as their user, is bad.

BLKNSLVR 9y ago

As an avid amateur student of human behaviour, I appreciate your keen eye for this. I actually don't think it's tricky to reconcile the two. The people conducting the analytics are doing it 'for the right reasons'. The people being analysed don't trust anyone to do anything 'for the right reasons' or without some amount of scope creep around the edges of 'the right reasons'. Self versus someone else. I've got the best intentions, but I don't think anyone else has. It touches on the theory of: if a company was a person it would have the traits of a psychopath / sociopath. The ends justifies the means. Grow the business, and analytics is the best way to do it, or to visualise the progress and adjust the method. Human as part of the business: We gotta do these things to give ourselves the greatest chance of success Human as consumer of app: Why would they possibly need access to THAT? There are definitely multi-personalities involved. WHich seems increasingly normal. Wasn't there an HN article on that recently? The brain is a denial-machine. It enables hypocrisy, and I can only theorise that this is due to our inability to survive if that wasn't the case.

sjbase 9y ago
Intuitively I'd agree that "best intentions of self vs. others" is probably the mechanism behind this type of cognitive dissonance. What I find harrowing is that in all likelihood, this is true for myself as well in ways that I'm not aware of! Your point about denial also reminded me of an article a read a couple years ago, attempting to explain why humans deceive themselves. The soft conclusion: we deceive ourselves in order to better deceive others. In this case, we convince ourselves that we have the best intentions in order to convince others of the same. I can't find the exact article, but this is similar and refers to the same research by Robert Trivers. It's an interesting read: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-deceive-ourselves-to-better-deceive-others/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-d...

shostack 9y ago

I'm a good example of this. I'm an ad guy and a marketer, and as such I'm much more intimately familiar with how this stuff works, what it collects, and how it is used than most. I'm also going to expand what I say beyond just the world of apps, because it is really applicable to anything digital these days, whether it is in an app or on the web, because I hate thinking of those things in silos. To be a successful marketer in this day and age, proper analytics is a non-negotiable requirement. If I was interviewing somewhere and they told me that I had to market and advertise for an app or website, but that I couldn't track things, that would be the end of that discussion. I would be set up for failure from day one. If anyone wants to make a case otherwise, I'd ask that they share their credentials as someone sufficiently experienced and qualified to make such a case, and how they would go about being successful without that data when pretty much any significant digital (or non-digital to an extent) strategy these days requires that data to measure success and optimize for it. So there's that piece. As an end-user, this is often a source of cognitive dissonance for me, and it has grown over the years. 8+ years ago, I had very different feelings when people talked to me about what was being tracked and how it was being used. It was less audience-centric, cross-device/channel tracking was not really a thing yet, and we didn't have anywhere near the aggressive tracking that FB and Google have today (even though some of the first signs of that were showing up publicly perhaps). Today I'm pretty paranoid about the data out there, who has access to it, and how that data can be used, both for anti-competitive business purposes, as well as more nefarious uses, even if unintended (such as via a data breach). I run noscript at home, and Firefox with uBlock Origin at home and on my phone. I personally don't have an issue with people collecting usage data for improving the product and their business, but there's a weird gray area for me when they start using that data against me for things like dynamic pricing, dark patterns, selling email hashes to cookie onboarding services for retargeting, etc. I also recognize that while I may not have much to hide, I know I'm pretty lucky in that regard compared to others who may not want to be identified by certain means, and I fully respect and appreciate their desires to remain untracked in that way. For example, I am pretty upset at how Reddit is moving towards increased tracking and verification as they march towards heavier monetization. That's an example of a community with many people who NEED to remain untracked for safety purposes, and that data, were it to fall into the wrong hands, could prove dangerous for them. Likewise, the simple act of forcing the collection of it could turn them away from such a platform which could indirectly cause them harm (suicidal users seeking help, abuse victims, whistle-blowers, etc.). So where do I net out with all of this and how do I sleep at night? Well, for my part I do what I can to be sensitive to protecting PII, not collecting data that I'm likely to never need, and really weighing heavily the tradeoffs and risks when I implement something like the Google or FB tracking tags anywhere, and what I may pass into them. I also make an effort to set the record straight and educate people on what I know of tracking, and how to best limit collection if you are concerned, because I think it is something everyone should be educated about so they can make those decisions in an informed matter themselves. I respect that some people hate my profession and think I'm evil, and I'm never going to win those people over, nor do I really feel the need to. But I'll say that to be competitive with marketing a product or service in this day and age, you dramatically hurt your chances of success if you DON'T have some decent tracking, and so the realities of the situation often dictate what happens in many businesses. My guess is the people who have such black and white views haven't ever been tasked with marketing a product in a true professional capacity, and if they have I'd love to hear their stories and what led them to their views.

Feniks 9y ago

Everyone has bills to pay, I understand. You're not doing anything really evil like joining the SS.